« Jeb Bush, Worse than Neil? | Main | About Conspiracy Theory »

December 03, 2007


Vaya Con Dios. Live long and prosper TNH.

The Last Hurrah?

It is remarkable that we haven't seen fitz's letter to luskin about rove, haven't heard a peep from fitz about whether rove was really let off the hook and yet there continues to be attacks on jason leopolds reporting on this story. Did anyone ever consider that leopold has been right? What about the sealed indictment 06cr128. Why did that suddenly disappear off the court website?

Why can't we see the letter to luskin?

It is remarkable that we haven't seen fitz's letter to luskin about rove, haven't heard a peep from fitz about whether rove was really let off the hook and yet there continues to be attacks on jason leopolds reporting on this story. Did anyone ever consider that leopold has been right? What about the sealed indictment 06cr128. Why did that suddenly disappear off the court website?

Why can't we see the letter to luskin?

Yes, it seems that TLH is at its end. Lately, I had missed the grand old days when there were multiple posters and lots of troll-less examination of issues. Ah, but for the grand poll debated stirred up by demfromct.

I'd been wondering where the other contributors had gone. I once in a while ran into them while lurking elsewhere, but always preferred this smaller environment. There is so much noise over at big orange and FDL - it was always nice not to have to sift through a billion comments to find out what bmaz, karg, sara, phred, readeroftealeaves, or lest we not forget freepatriot and so many of you other worthy and attuned commenters, thought.

Such a shame for this this place where once only giants roamed and no troll dared to tread come to an end. I hope to see you old-school hurrahers over at EW's new place.

This was for a while truly the greatest little blog on the web, and for it I say one last HURRAH!

et tu emptywheel

so is the site going belly up or what ???

am I gonna have to change my homepage again

guess it's too late to complain about the new format at fdl, that boat already sailed

I haven't been this sad since "media whores online" folded their tent and dissapeared

we'll still see each other from time to time, but things will never be the same

thanks for everything ew

you are my muse

veya con dios my friend

and happy trails to you ...

Three Cheers for Marcie! See you on the other side...

I wonder if there is moderation implemented at the new site, or if only limpidly clear prose is to appear there; I may try to post again there, sorry if it appears redundantly. The news this morning from SixApart's subsidiary sale also seems a timely indicator of a good transition point, but this old tnh site still has better graphics and speed. I appreciate the hospitality at tnh. Maybe Sara, Kagro X, and mimikatz could appear in the new place occasionally on a guest basis. I found you all at the Orange place around the time the Dean campaign was emphasizing the internet for communications efficiency.


I cannot even get FDL to load on my computer. I have emailed for help often. I now know it is not my computer because I have NO problems with any other site. So, TNH was my saving grace for cogent news on an in-depth basis.

Dismayed- ditto

bmaz- will I even get to read your insightful commentary again, considering we have such problems getting FDL to load on our computers? I keep trying the "bookmark" suggestion and it only works randomly. FDL sent some suggestions and those only work randomly too. Take care all.

EW- Congrats. I hope it will be a great match for your awesome skills. Regrettably, I cannot get FDL to load on my computer since the "diggs" was added on the site. I'm not sure how I will keep up with your skillful research and timelines. For now, I'll go to the sites that load just fine and miss your skillful intellect. Take care.

FWIW, for those who have trouble loading FDL, I use a text-only browser, "lynx," and it works just fine over there.

It does take some attention to figure out the presentation in a text-only format, but IMO, the speed makes it worth it. "lynx" is very cross-platform friendly.

I just put this down at Beer and Turkey Thirty, but this appears to be shaping up as our farewell thread, so here again...

"I'm with you bmaz. I'm thrilled for EW, but it appears (at least for now) that her comment threads over at FDL will be of the rapid sort that I have a hard time keeping up with. The slower pace over here has suited me, but I'll manage I guess. So who gets to turn out the lights?"

Dismayed et al., can't tell you how much I'll miss our discussions here. I'm hoping we can pick things up over at the new place, but I'll miss our quiet corner... And besides, there appears to be problems with colons and semicolons over there. What will I do without my smileys ;)


I hadn't been able to get into FDL for quite a while when at home on dial-up. The new version is loading fine (faster, anyway). Try it again, please? (Also, your log-in at EW's new place works at FDL also.)

P J Evans

Your invitation to keep trying at FDL is so nice. I've tried for the last 1.5 hours and only had luck getting a text only version to come up once and it was a bit difficult to follow. I cannot even attempt to get a comment posted. I have a high speed connection. I have no other sites with this loading problem. I cannot even get a connection to EW's new place at FDL either.

It's a bit of a downer...I am concerned about all the lurkers at both FDL and TNH who found themselves informed beyond what any MSM would provide. I wonder what the "hit" numbers are since the change and how many will be lost here and there.

BTW bmaz, I have to say...Go Buckeyes! Yes, Arizona should have received a better bowl bid.

I think everybody here would like to see the new site attrack the more opened minded people, not so much Democrats just ranting. We should strive for less polarization and more discovery. I'll give you more insight on the new site. ALSO: Dad says Buckeyes should make it to a big bowl so expect to see them on New Years Day!

Wheel, I registered over there, but when I try to post, it adds random characters and makes it look like gibberish. I'll try from my other computer. Failing that, I'll continue to read you but won't be able to post without looking like an idiot, so I could be disappearing for a while. Thanks for all your great work.


Perhaps I can help with your FDL and Emptywheel problems? I'm a techie and might be able to assist.

Can you tell me the following stuff:

1. What OS are you using? Windows XP, Vista, a Mac OS?
2. What browser are you using? Internet Explorer, Firefox, Safari?
3. Can you describe exactly what the problem is? Step by step, what is not working?


Others have reported the same problem. And if I'm remembering correctly, doing a "hard refresh" of the page cleans everything up.

We never had to do a hard refresh at the nexthurrah. We were young and beautiful.

There may be a delay after first time registration at ew's new site. After a while, I finally posted there but only after removing the html links embedded in my post.

I think part of the fdl wordpress version problem is each user has to reload the entire thread and all the graphics each time a visitor decides to click the showNewComments control; when there are thousands of simultaneous visitors, the solution may require some topologically distributed servers worldwide, or at least in the places which serve the largest concentrations of viewers. For TypePad I am located on a fiber backbone, or sufficientlty close to it that our broadband provider can refresh easily thru a nearby metropolis where TypePad has a subsidiary; over dialup, my backup connectivity, even in TypePad, is slow. There may be an issue with video at the new fdl site, as well. Even before fdl migrated to WordPress, fdl had to shorten the currently available posts once they began adding images and video; that revision sped up their site immensely.

The new modified WordPress should work well, as it has an above-the-fold appearance for each author's posts.

I hope there is some arrangement with SixApart to archive TNH for reference purposes. But the pace seems so much quicker at fdl-ew already, with the new synergies of bright people there, that we should enjoy even more effective communications there.

I have thought for a long time ew could benefit from the blogads concept, and the new ew site appears to have its own separate sponsors; that idea should help spread the commercial information which ew personally supports, as well. In all, a bumpy start, but a very quick acceleration there. My appreciation to the new site owners, to TypePad for years of service, and to some of the still contributing authors at tnh.

Footnote: The commentPreview mode is still to be implemented at fdl-ew; I hope they design it as tnh's original designers did so preview provides the same view of the linewraps as actually appears in the final posted comment, so we can continue to write our iambic pentameter knowing how the reader will view it.
Nice to have shared here. JL

They say refresh is a beauty product now. Hope it is safe for the ocean dwelling biota and lake and stream life.

Phred said: I'm thrilled for EW, but it appears (at least for now) that her comment threads over at FDL will be of the rapid sort that I have a hard time keeping up with.

replace "rapid" with "vapid" and you've got my thoughts exactly :-( FDL was great until they got popular, but I don't think they've scaled very well at all. At least EW has her own page, we won't have to wade through all the other cruft on the front page of FDL to see her posts.

I wrote, but did not post (power outage in the middle of it) a long comment earlier about my dismay that more folks who have jumped on the political web2.0 trend have not seen fit to use slashcode. Slashcode is the php/MySql program which runs slashdot.org. It uses the same underlying web and db technology as Wordpress, but it represents a vast improvement in that it allows users to moderate comments, and allows readers to FILTER comments by mod level.

Slashdot has been doing the user-generated content thing for ten years now. They've been an overwhelming success because the site is easy to use for readers, and it is easy to filter the comments so that you see only those which other users agree are worth reading. And they've made their code available for free. There is simply no reason NOT to use it.

The moderation feature addresses so many of the problems that keep cropping up at high-traffic unmoderated blogs. Moderated comments allow readers to just ignore the "FIRST POST" stuff by reading at level 3, counting on other users to mod the trolls to -1. And it solves (well, part of) the Kos censorship problem, because everyone has the option of reading, and responding to, posts at the -1 level.

I'm all for the wordpress platform, and I use it myself- but it's pretty much unworkable from a reader's perspective once you have more than 20 or 30 comments per post on a regular basis. Takes too much time to read what everyone before you has said. Slash fixes that too. And they got started in Ann Arbor- I bet EW has seen Rob Malda at the corner bar before without knowing who he is.

Anyhow. Best wishes and best of luck EW, hope you're able to benfit from this change in the way you expect, and that your dedicated TNH fans can find a way to continue to enjoy what you write.

Thank you KLynn for describing the hell I've had for almost a year trying to load FDL on my dialup system. I've written so many times and they just won't acknowledge that there is any problem. I use Opera browser which works wonders for me. FDL would sometimes load, sometimes half, sometimes not at all. Since they changed their system over the weekend I cannot get a thing except insane server warnings telling me

Access forbidden!

You don't have permission to access the requested directory. There is either no index document or the directory is read-protected.

blah blah blah. The fact that EW, my favorite blogger, has moved there is devastating. I can load it on IE6, but the type is too small for me to read comfortably, and text size has no effect on it. Oy.

The great thing about reading Marcy here was the wonderful commenters who had the brains to challenge each other to greater heights. Gonna miss this terribly. Even worse than when Gleen G went to Salon.

emptywheel - In case I don't make it over to FDL to tell you there, thanks so much (to you or to whomever did the deed) for working on the eyestrain problem with your page design at the new FDL digs (excellent new banner heading too). The tiny, thin font on a beige background of the new, main FDL is almost painful to read - particularly the comments, located between the blue-to-white bars. Between squinting to make out the very fine lettering and to account for typos, and then re-adjusting to the bordering blue to try to identify the obscured name of the commenters, it's a real chore now to read FDL (although today the blue-bar contrast seems less stark, so perhaps the problem is slowly being addressed). Your page there is a significant improvement, with the white background, and gray bars - though a slightly thicker or larger, or just 'less-squeezed' font for the comments would probably be preferable for most readers. Perhaps color just needs to be very muted when used next to such fine/thin lettering. I don't seem to have a problem with TNH's small and quite thin font on a white background. The "relief" to the eyes, when I 'escape' from FDL to another site is quite pronounced for me - so the squinting to read is not my imagination, I'm confident. [I know I can fiddle with the settings to make FDL more legible if I'm determined enough to read in comfort, but I doubt many lurkers and others will bother with that. The tiny lettering and thus seemingly ad-focused new format also makes it appear that FDL has started 'whispering' its posts, which seems counterproductive to me. But, perhaps, that was the intended effect - more revenue in order to be able to affect politics where it lives today, and a lessening of the focus on the site's opinion and analysis per se.]

Also, for the record re FISA: Harry Reid announced on the Senate floor this afternoon that Jay Rockefeller, Kit Bond, Pat Leahy and Arlen Specter are working together to merge the Senate Intelligence and Judiciary Committee FISA bills into one. One bill that will presumably be able to fly through with 60 votes in the Senate later this week (or at least in December - because Reid sounds bound and determined to put together a new bill, and he said they need time to conference with the House before the PAA expires in early February). So it's three authoritarians against one 'nice guy' fair weather democrat. Good Luck, Fourth Amendment. Good Luck, domestic communications networks. Good Luck, America.

Mad Dogs

Posted the following last week...

phred & bmaz,

I have a G4 Quicksilver running OS 10.4.11 and Safari 3.0.4 so I should have "enough" to load FDL. I am not sure why, but this past week, my loading FDL has gotten much worse. bmaz, tried your trick with bookmarks and it worked to a degree. When I tried to post a comment, the "server stopped responding" message came up again... It seems all three of us have "enough" to be able to load the site.

I have at&t as my high speed (please forgive me all, my original company was bought out by a&tt. I have been worried about switching and having my yard "dug" up yet again).

Anyway, FDL told me to:

1) Clear browser cache and restart her computer.

2) Repair permissions: Go to Applications folder, then Utilities folder, double click on "Disk Utility." In Disk Utility, in the left hand column, highlight the name of the hard drive, then click the "Repair Disk Permissions" button. Wait for DU to do it's thing, it will say "Permissions repair complete" when it's done, then restart the computer.

Did this last week before the launch of the new format. It worked a few times but I only had marginal success and had to do it anytime I wanted to visit the Lake.

For a long time I never had any problems with FDL or any site for that matter. Then over time, FDL started to take longer to load. Then it started to load on a default font. Then, I began getting "servers not responding" notices. Now, nothing most of the time. Although, I have gotten a text only version to come up twice all day in a default font and it took 15+ minutes to load. It takes so long and is such a hassle to even get this default text,text only version of the site that it is just not worth it.

I have no problems with any other site. Everything else loads with high speed, no default fonts, no error messages, no server not responding messages.

Trouble shoot away -- I'm all eyes, ears and keyboarding hands ready to work!


I was dreading that you were on a Mac, 'cause I'm a Windows-only techie. :-(

But I'm not willing to leave you folks wandering in the desert without helping to get some attention paid to this.

I'm going to ponder just how best to get the attention of the FDL and Emptywheel folks in a way that finally deals with this access problem once and for all.

It is simply not acceptable that folks are left high and dry, and that "customer service" says try this, but if it doesn't work, go away.

Let me think about this for a bit and decide on an approach to take.

jonno and pow wow, and anyone else:

I too have strong dislike for the font size over at FDL/Emptywheel. Particularly in the Comments!

I am not willing to let this slide.

We've got to get them to increase the font size! It is not just that it can be almost unreadable, it is also seriously injurious to one's eyes.

I guess our mantra should be: "We Protest! No More Repetitive Eyestrain!"

Mad Dogs thanks.

I posted on a Mac help site too. I have never, never had any problems on the net with my Mac, ever. This problem with FDL is a first.

So far, no one has suggestions on the Mac help site I posted on.

Mad Dogs -- did you lose the "s" over at the new place? Just curious, I always liked the Mad Dogs and Englishmen reference.

KLynn, I really really wish I could be more helpful. I was teasing about the Intel chip v. PowerPC chip last week, but I'm truly mystified why you're having so much trouble. Since it is only FDL, it can't be a problem with your connection/service provider. And I'm using the same versions of the OS and Safari as you. SeamusD was suggesting I try using preview at Crooks and Liars, when I was having trouble with punctuation at EW's new site 'cause they use wordpress (which presumably FDL uses, too). Any trouble with C&L for you?

I use windows XP Pro and opera browser on a very new and fast build. I'm on dialup thru Juno for 6 or 7 years now; have occasional trouble with certain financial sites. And total trouble with FDL only, amongst blogs. I don't know what they do there. I sometimes use a proxy server to eliminate advertising. Ironically, that is sometimes the only way I can get a response out of FDL. Without the proxy server I instantly get a network server problem notice. Odd that FDL thing.

Maybe ew-fdl has an administrator console tool to eliminate the adulatory capture cite format, or whatever the feature's proper name is: the one that grabs the entire post of a prior comment and writes it indented above your comment, reply. I think that must overtax the database by all the interconnections. I am hoping the exposure and synergy for ew there will improve the substance, which, for me, was the highlight of ew's tnh work; ew has an electric sense of essence and can take it to the next level, even if it is a while before the next chapter in ew's ongoing parallel investigations.

I was pleased to see jeff and bmaz and lhp in one of ew's threads there this morning, but the visuals are as the commenter above observed, vapid. Still, it is better than encountering wayward mopeds who disobey traffic signals in Thailand riskily. I have too little time to engage at fdl, there being a substantial number of thought provoking sites now elsewhere on the internet. But ew is special.

To the apple pc person with loading problems at fdl, and to the visitor who sees non alphabet characters, if that also is an Apple machine, I wonder if you might find some technical help thru Apple; their engineers at their helpdesk likely will know all the bugs of incompatibility with WordPress, though ew's fdl zone is touted as a customized version of WordPress. My workstation is XP Professional, and all the firewall and other under the hood utils maintained by my company, which kindly welcomes us to work from home and use our computer for personal interests freely.

I got to check to see if freepat and the friends who are looking at the residuals from the heritage event last Saturday need any help or if they left a few things ew would be glad if I washed a little more thoroughly, though those folks are very thorough, besides being quick. Then on, to the new environment; I am one who adapts to the upgrade at first opportunity. Maybe I will try to visit fdl-ew again after work this evening. ew is too important a resource to let evanesce simply because there are funny patterns on the walls and the side entrance is remodeled to look like it is all feng shui from here on in. A transforming experience, in all, and worth the change, and enhanced revenue stream.

phred said: "did you lose the "s" over at the new place? Just curious, I always liked the Mad Dogs and Englishmen reference."

Yeah, when registering for the new FDL, as I said in a comment over there, I decided to give 'em a break so they wouldn't have to refer to single ol' me in the plural.

And as to the "Mad Dogs and Englishmen" reference, I always apologized to the ghost of Noel Coward in modifying his delightful ditty to be "Mad Dogs and Englishmen Americans".

It seemed all too fitting during the reign of the Boy King.

You've always been singular to me Mad Dogs ;) And thanks for the paper towels ;)


Since you are on XP, I might have half a chance in helping out. *g*

I don't use Opera on any of my Windows systems, so I'm gonna be somewhat of a doofus in helping here.

Have you ever tried deleting the cookie that FDL puts on your PC?

Since FDL now requires registration to post, it uses a cookie to maintain session information. Perhaps there is some crazy mess that takes place with the FDL cookie after the changeover.

Also, now that I think of it, what level of security/privacy are you using to handle cookies in Opera?

I know that on my XP system with IE7, I have my privacy settings set to "prompt" for cookies. In the case of FDL, that is one of the sites that I allow to place a cookie on my system.

I do know that with IE, if you've blocked a site from placing a cookie on your PC, AND that site needs cookies to function, sometimes you will get a web page that refuses to load because it is constantly and continually trying to place a cookie on your system.

It just seems to stop loading, but in reality it is spinning its wheels and eating up your CPU trying over and over to do something that one has configured to not allow.

Let me know just what "step by step" you're seeing when you try to get to FDL.

So, old time posters - are ANY of you sticking around here. I will continue to pop in daily if any of you guys are sticking around.

Also, where are Karg, DemfromCT, MIMi, Sara and some of you others posting? I'm not likely to dive into the static of comments at kos, but will read your post if I know where to find them.

And How the hell can you sift throught the contributors at the bigger sites to find people you want to read.

Sucks that this community has slipped away, I certainly see EW's rational, but I'm not sure why the situation shaped up this way. Seems like more was lost than gained.

Klynn, I am using a MacBook with OS 10.4.10 and Firefox on DSL and am having no problem at FDL. Tried Safari and it works, too.

KLynn -- any chance your troubles are related to how you have Safari set to handle cookies? If you go to Safari Preferences (under Safari in menu bar), click on the Security icon in the pop up window. It should have two sections: Web Content and Accept Cookies.

For Web Content, I have three boxes checked: Enable plug-ins, Enable Java, and Enable JavaScript. I do not have the Block pop-up windows checked because it caused trouble for a couple of sites I frequent.

For Accept Cookies, I have "Only from sites you navigate to" selected.

I also have the box checked to be notified before sending a non-secure form to a secure website. And I do not have the parental controls activated.

Try those settings and let me know how it goes. If you still have trouble, we can go through the rest of Safari preferences together. Maybe it is some setting in there that FDL doesn't like...

Hey folks.

I'm going to do another post in the next several days to give a more complete explanation of the move. Like a lot of you, I really enjoyed the comeraderie we had at TNH in its first year or so.

In the meantime, I am cognizant of the issues here. FDL has a few more things on its plate before I can begin tweaking. But I'm not ignoring you.

Thanks EW!

No offense is at all intended, nor I hope perceived.

That said, the friggin' fonts are too small! *g*

Other than that, as a Beta Tester of Microsoft software for the last 15 years, I can easily live with most of the other bugs features to be ironed out.

One way to avoid the orange mainpage is the user pages, Dismayed. For example, ew's page there is http://www.dailykos.com/user/emptywheel

ew's acquaintance litigatormom's page over there is

former mainJustice whistleblower's page over there is

But Kagro X and sara must have the time, and certainly have the interest to explore over there. Actually that other site is a lot like a public library, once you get accustomed to the tenor of conversation. A lot of law profs post there. I am glad ew, Jane, and company have assessed the synergy and potential for scale among themselves as an identity separate from orange and opted to multiplex the fdl site so ew has an ew node which is exclusive. One of the outstanding features of tnh is its relaxing blue and white and gray theme with simple orthography, much gets lost in translation to fdl. But I appreciate Jane's expertise, having worked in and received formal training in video production in a longtime employment of my own, clearly also one of Jane's many strengths. I appreciate Jane's savvy for having recognized ew's expertise before the Walton trial, aggregating some associates to contribute with ew. To me the effort to escalate ew's muse is worthwhile centrally. We will see how accessible the new digs are esthetically and intellectually. Otherwise, I appreciate the hospitality for these past few years, and may look forward to tending to all the ranch chores I skipped because ew's work continuously loomed as important in counterbalance to the political and communications currents in the English speaking world and a few other nonEnglish realms, as well.

Klynn - many months ago when I couldn't get FDL to load for squat, I loaded Firefox and it worked well. I literally would use Safari for everything but FDL and then switch to Firefox when I wanted to go to FDL. Not optimal I understand, but it worked. Now, as I said before the other day, my Safari works acceptably usually, but not always, aided by the two click thing. Make sure you leave a couple of seconds in between the clicks; too fast doesn't work. I don't know if you are under warranty, or have the extended warranty on your Mac, but if you do, you can set an appointment with your local Mac Genius at the Mac store (assuming there is one near you) they really are quite good and dedicated to fixing problems. It is clearly a Mac issue and it is not inherent in the Safari system, it is acquired somehow. I think it probably is related to the permissions/cookies/authorization stuff. We can get around this; hang tough. For now, download Firefox and try that; I'll check back. I'll make you a deal: Don't give up until you make the move with us and I will root for OSU in the big game. Whoo boy, I better post this before I realize what I offered....

Mad Dogs

Thanks for taking the time to help me. Opera actually has more levels of control over cookies than IE. I have it set to "Accept only cookies from the site I visit" In FDL's case I have also tried "Accept cookies" which I think is the highest level of acceptability. I use a tool called "IREjectTrash" which needs a proxy server. Some sites cannot work with it, so I turn off the proxy server and it is effectively eliminated from the connection. The only way I can get any response from FDL is to use the proxy server and the the "IRT" tool. In that case, FDL sends me approx 20KB of data and then I get this message:
The URL was redirected to http://firedoglake.com//firedoglake.com//firedoglake.com//firedoglake.com//firedoglake.com//firedoglake.com//firedoglake.com//firedoglake.com//firedoglake.com//firedoglake.com//firedoglake.com//firedoglake.com//firedoglake.com//firedoglake.com//firedoglake.com//firedoglake.com//firedoglake.com//firedoglake.com//firedoglake.com//firedoglake.com//firedoglake.com//www.firedoglake.com/. Please click the link to go there.

You can enable the automatic redirection in the settings.>

I have automatic redirection enabled globally so that's not it. If I click on the multiple FDL link, I get this message

You don't have permission to access the requested directory. There is either no index document or the directory is read-protected.

If you think this is a server error, please contact the webmaster.
Error 403
Mon Dec 3 15:35:48 2007
Apache/2.2.6 (Unix) mod_ssl/2.2.6 OpenSSL/0.9.7l DAV/2 PHP/5.2.5>

I've sent this stuff to FDL's contact email, but they don't reply. This is the ONLY site on the internet that I've encountered that yields these poor results. It's a pisser.

OMG, bmaz rooting for a Big Ten team?!?! I'm gonna faint...

Good luck with your new audience. Afterall, bedlam is like dreaming of rain.

Phred - I've always liked Northwestern, Purdue and your Badgers ok. Not a ton, but ok..... This is a one off deal to help Klynn get to the promised land!

bmaz -- just wanted you to know I was suitably impressed with your generosity of spirit ;)

We're all keeping our fingers crossed for you KLynn!

Yeah you are just here to make your little smiley faces in peace....


Thanks for the feedback on what you're seeing. Couple questions:

1. You said: "The only way I can get any response from FDL is to use the proxy server and the the "IRT" tool." I guess I don't understand why you need a proxy server to access FDL. I saw that the IRT utility requires a proxy server (and I've read that IRT blocks advertisements, so I understand what it does), but I'm missing something here about your setup/configuration or even your network connection that requires a proxy server, and particularly for FDL.

Additionally, what exactly happens when you try to connect to FDL "without" using the proxy server/IRT combo?

2. Have you tried "deleting" the FDL cookie yet? Sometimes that allows you to start afresh on a site where the old cookie was screwing things up. This may be needed just because of the changeover and its requirement to "register" in order to post.

Since this is relatively easy to do, I'd recommend trying it just for grins.

3. That redirection linky to multiple instances of firedoglake.com in the URL is really strange. Can I assume that you have tried to enter the correct URL in Opera manually of http://firedoglake.com ? And what does that actually do?

Sorry if these questions seem to be a bit like "scratching one's head", but that is generally how one actually troubleshoots a problem. Sooner or later, one trips over the cause and all ends well. We hope. *g*

bmaz -- who knew that would be so hard??? I felt like a dope with the multiple comments trying to figure it out, but preview wasn't working. Oh well, I tried to keep it mostly on one thread so as not to be too much of a pest.

The problems with FDL not loading on Macs is weird. I have a similar setup, Powerbook, Safari 3.04, OS 10.4.11 with DSL and have experienced none of the problems except for the strange punctuation characters that disappear after a hard refresh. I would definitely try deleting all FDL cookies (in Safari, Safari/Preferences/Security- click show cookies button, then scroll down alphabetically under the "website" column to firedoglake.com and emtywheel.firedoglake.com- highlight them and click on "remove"). If that doesn't help we can try something else, but this can be licked.

Mad Dogs

Yes, this is maddening, so perhaps you're the right techie for the job. *g*

1) I have to use the proxy server for the anti-ad software to work. But some sites won't load, in which case I temporarily shut the proxy server off. In the case of FDL, if I turn all the extras off and try to access the site using its normal url http://www.firedoglake.com/ absolutely nothing happens. I can look at my isp connection and see that not one byte goes out or comes in. Opera immediately gives me this warning "You tried to access the address http://www.firedoglake.com/, which is currently unavailable." Doesn't matter if I try a link, bookmark, or manually type in the address. With the proxy server on it at least makes some contact and gives me odd messages. And it downloaded that new fdl icon for the address bar. So I made minimal contact of some sort.

2) I've deleted the fdl cookie and emptywheel's too, a coupla times. No effect. Cleared the cache against my better judgement, but what the hey. Didn't help.

3) If I turn off the auto redirect, I get a message directing me to http://www.firedoglake.com/http://www.firedoglake.com/ (twice) and if I click on it, it adds another and on and on.

I've been around the computer and windows for a long time and know how to troubleshoot. I'll try anything, but this takes the cake eh? *g* I appreciate your help.


Hold on while I do a bit of thinking/googling.

This is interesting. When I google "You tried to access the address" and both "network" and "problem", I get a lot of hits regarding Opera. Hmmm...are we dealing with an Opera-unique problem here?

Seems to be an issue with Opera and https (secure) sites.

Also seems to be an issue with accessing Linux servers (via Opera), and I believe that Jane has FDL running a modified version of WordPress on Linux-based servers.

Hmmm...getting a strange feeling that this is a combo Opera/Linux problem.

More thinking/googling.

Excellent work Mad Ogs. Pulled out my original misspelling in honor of your dedication to the task.

Klynn - Have you tried Firefox yet? Please advise on your status. You have friends here willing to do what it takes.

Okay. This is a pretty stupid suggestion I am sure, but what the heck. The speed that pages, refreshes etc. load for me is a LOT faster on EW's portion of the site than the FDL part. Here is URL for EW. Maybe try using it instead of FDL?


bmaz, thanks for the Mad Ogs. I truly treasure it! :-)

jonno, can you open a DOS command prompt for me and try to ping FDL?

1. Click on the Start button and go up to Run.
2. Click on Run and type in Command, and then hit enter.
3. When the DOS window opens, type in the following and hit enter: ping www.firedoglake.com

Try this in 2 different configurations. One with no proxy server/no IRT, and the other with the proxy server/IRT active.

One of the features of the DOS command prompt, is the ability to copy and paste the text it shows.

After you've done my ping tests above, click on the little black c:\ icon in the upper left corner of the DOS command prompt.

You will get a pull down menu.
Go down to the Edit entry and then move your cursor over to the right to select Mark.

When you've done that, use your mouse to highlight all of the text produced by the ping commands you ran. Then hit your enter key.

That will copy the contents highlighted to the clipboard so you can paste it into a comment here at TNH.

Standing by for your reply.

Mad Dogs

Fabulous instructions; proxy server is part of the opera browser, so I will turn the ad killer on and off as well. It operates globally.

Pinging www.firedoglake.com [2610:1f8:d8:2:217:f2ff:fe93:a2b8] with 32 bytes of

Request timed out.
Request timed out.
Request timed out.
Request timed out.

Ping statistics for 2610:1f8:d8:2:217:f2ff:fe93:a2b8:
Packets: Sent = 4, Received = 0, Lost = 4 (100% loss),

ping www.firedoglake.com

Pinging www.firedoglake.com [2610:1f8:d8:2:217:f2ff:fe93:a2b8] with 32 bytes of

Request timed out.
Request timed out.
Request timed out.
Request timed out.

Ping statistics for 2610:1f8:d8:2:217:f2ff:fe93:a2b8:
Packets: Sent = 4, Received = 0, Lost = 4 (100% loss),

jonno @ 20:20, what you are describing looks like (in the PC world) a redirect to a non-routable address caused by an invalid entry in a HOSTS file. I do not know what the analagous file would be in a MAC world.

An Anti-spyware programs could do this. For example, the best freeware program for PCs "spybot S&D" has an "immunize" function: known bad sites are identified and then if one tries to access that site it is redirected to something like (i.e., nowhere).

If you have a hosts file (or something analagous), and if firedoglake.com is in there, it would explain the behavior.

Jeebus jonno, this is not good. *g*

You should be able to ping FDL and get replys back in at least one of those configurations.

Thinking again...

Since you're on XP, I assume you have its Firewall turned on, correct? Do you know if you modified its basic settings or just let it use its default settings?

DCgaffer, excellent point! Btw, jonno is indeed on a Windows XP PC, so jonno may have a hosts file.

Strange though that jonno had been able to access FDL before the changeover, but also did have intermittent access problems.


Per DCgaffer thought, we're gonna take a look at that Hosts file and see if an entry there is causing the problem.

Let me know when you're ready to go.

Oh crap! I use spybot S&D. It says I have 8477 blocked and 29932 additional protections possible...guess I'm not up to date :)

But I don't see how to remove fdl if it's indeed listed. Any help there?

I am using Windows Firewall, and have made a few sites exempt so I can upload to my own website etc.

OK I'm ready. Let me just say that I can access FDL thru my IE browser; it's only opera that has the problem. And that is what I use 99% of the time.

Mad dogs @ 21:17.

Noticed my mistake on the MAC ... XP issue after the fact.

On a dial-up connection one might have slow loading as the site reaches out to other servers (like adservers). Latency is the issue here.

Following up on your point, if you can't ping it (and you know the site is not down), its internal to the machine not external.

That points to HOSTS file, firewall or security settings in the browser itself.

I'm not sure where to look for the HOSTS file, or what to do with it.

My security protocols in Opera are SSL2, SSL3, TLS1, TLS1.1

There is no specific content being blocked

Well, I am around, but for a variety of reasons had a ten day vacation from Cyberspace.

I like TNH because it is slow and fairly simple. I dislike all the emphasis on Cybertechnology to get to the meat of any blog, though I did register for FDL's new system, claimed my screen-name, and got a comment up with only a small number of problems. But I agree with many that the comments on FDL have become increasingly more vapid. The posts move down the page too quickly, Posters more "upstairs" too quickly, If you want to think about something, or even look something up before you post, chances are the initial post has moved beyond the relevant comment stage. Some comments and even posts are better if they mellow a bit. The highest value is not the most responses or speed -- sometimes it is a result of thinking things through.


Sounds like the Firewall is ok.

For the moment we'll pass on spybot S&D and see if we can check out the Hosts file which it may have modified.

1. Open Windows Explorer. You can do this by simply going to Run again and typing in the following and hit enter:

explorer c:\windows\system32\drivers\etc

This will bring up a window. In that window, you'll see a file called Hosts.

2. Right click on the Hosts file and select Open.
3. When it asks you to Open With, select Notepad.
4. Copy and paste the contents of that file into a comment here and we'll take a look-see.

No file there called HOSTS. Closest thing is Imhosts.sam


Couldn't agree more. And I always liked the "slower pace" of TNH as well as the tendency to have more thoughtful, and longer comments.

That's been hard to do over at FDL for a long time. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with the short, witty repartee there, but I like different sites for different reasons.

And TNH (as well as a few others like Pat Lang's) seem to encourage a slower, longer and more thoughtful pace.

We'll see if that can still be achieved in Marcy's new digs. I'd be less than thrilled to go without my Emptywheel.


Hmmm...that's odd, but not terribly so. By default, Microsoft typically has 5 files in there. Hosts, lmhosts.sam, networks, protocol, and services. Do you see the rest of these files?

I have everything but hosts; there is one other called quotes

sorry everyone for taking up so much time and space with this.


quotes? That is really strange. What is it and what is it doing in on of Microsoft's hidden, secret, not-to-be-peeked-at places in Windows?

Oh well...*g*

Right click on that sucker, and open it just as if it was the Host file from my instructions above. Copy and paste the contents here and we'll look about to see what it is.

Sara - I, as you might guess, agree with you. I was extremely fond of TNH precisely because it was uncluttered and, with the exception of occasional off-color humor and sports blabbering (both of which I am quite habitually guilty of), it was chock full only with people who had something to say and wanted to get down to business. For the most part, the discussions have been very good over at the new joint. There is an awful lot of ability imbued in the greater core group that EW has gathered, and it is all of our ultimate goal to effect some positive and substantive change. I think the new platform, when it is done being assembled (and they are not done yet I don't think), is going to be a lot more powerful for actually getting her, and our, work product across to the places and people that need to be reached. Can't stop progress, we can only make it our own and go along for the ride. I have been pleasantly surprised so far. Yours is a very needed voice, so come on over.

mad dogs

The quotes I already looked at and are harmless ms bs like
"Man can climb to the highest summits, but he cannot dwell there long."
George Bernard Shaw (1856-1950)
about a dozen of those...gotta love microsoft.

all the files in that folder are 2001 vintage; don't think they've been changed since installation of OS. XP Pro SP2 btw

I connect thru JUNO which has a shell similar to aol; don't know if that plays into it.

so we're still payin the rent,and keeping the lights on an stuff, even if we move a little slower than the average tube ???

still tubes run deep, dont cha know ???

it's nice to know we still got a shady bench somewhere out there in the internets

hell, order another box of wine, I'm buyin ...

and did somebody clean up that mess in the basement ???


Ok, ixnay on the otesquay. Though I've never, ever seen MS put something like that file in that place. Mucho strange, but probably irrelevant.

I guess that takes us over to spybot S&D. Or Juno, though I doubt it since you used it successfully prior to the FDL changeover.

I've not used spybot for a couple years, so you'll have to bear with me. Can you describe some of the configuration, settings and entry stuff one can do with it? I've forgotten a lot. *g*

Give me some of the stuff we can change and we'll see if somehow FDL got placed in there.

FWIW - I have both hosts and lmhosts on my nearly-new XP system. They're MS-created files, and haven't been changed (as far as I can tell) since the system was first booted.

oh deah.register or rack off!
blog roll hacked (in the old sense) to bits.
no more easily following disparate subjects in the comments.reply at number such and such?ayy?!
those godawful ads.
i spose not posting is no loss to you but i found communicating with various minds on differing subjects really stimulating.i learned a lot for which i am grateful.
Thank you for the glimpse into the best of the american thought process.
i will not register.
i'll continue to read but the feeling that i could comment will no longer be there.
your way or the highway?
what a pity.

sorry,should have said the post was referring to FDL.

mad dogs,

I don't think spybot s&d can be it because I can access fdl using IE6. It's got to be something in opera. Such a drag. I think I'll just use IE6 if I want to see fdl. I have to use it to view Glenn Greenwald at salon. Trouble is I rarely go there because it's so slow on my system. Oh well.

I don't want to take up any more of your time or this space. I fully appreciate all you've done. Learned how to copy text in the command prompt. Cool!

happy trails...


Thanks for thanks! Sorry we couldn't get you to the Opera. It probably is indeed Opera, or even that IRT. IRT may be gagging on the new advertisements of FDL. You might try checking out IRT's settings to see if it is the culprit.

Happy trail are here again...now you've got me singin' that. Probably keep me up all night. *g*

Hi all. Thanks bmaz, PJ and Mad Dogs (!) for ALL the help. Hours on end to make this work. Finally got EW's new digs to work through Firefox (thanks bmaz) along with some tweeks (Mad Dogs)

Unfortunately, the login will not recognize me or either of my email addresses. So, I can read but cannot comment. Cannot login in any shape or form...Kind of feel like I'm four and put in "time out".

Everyone, you have so completely wonderful to make this work on my end. bmaz, thanks for the vote towards the buckeyes -- big smile here in Columbus. My son gives a thumbs up to bmaz!


I hope you give commenting at FDL a second chance. Sleep on it, think about it. It seems that it is still a work in progress for some of its features.


"been so completely wonderful."

My brain is fried from "teching" it out on the tubes.


On the Login problem, what is it doing? Did you already register before installing Firefox?

On the old FDL, I had registered before installing Firefox. On the new FDL, I had not registered before installing Firefox. Hope this makes sense.

mad dogs

happy trails to you, until we meet again- it's that slow western tune. Roy and Dale. Not the thing they played at repuglican conventions years ago. Please!

I have taken my trouble to the opera community and we'll see what they can come up with. FWIW, I did disable the anti-ad software to no effect.

mad props to mad dogs!

ditto on the "mad props to mad dogs!"

Hey jonno,

Check this out:

If you install OneCare, which otherwise seems to be a clean and full-featured program, it will block Opera without telling you. I thought my connection was busted, then started to wonder if OneCare messes with the firewall. Yup. Of course it detects and allows Firefox, Skype, Skype Extras, Outlook, and Live programs, but it doesn't even notify you that it's blocking Opera. Even if you have "Notify me when the firewall blocks an application" selected.

To fix, you'll have to access the Windows Firewall from the Change Settings link on the left hand navigation in OneCare (I can't do it from the firewall app started by the wireless connection menu), select the firewall tab, make sure Notify and Always ask are checked at the bottom, go into Advanced Settings, Programs tab, then Add..., then find the Opera executable. Fortunately, that fixed the problem immediately.
Looks like the blocking also happens with other programs...both Pidgin and BOINC had no notification.


If I understand you, you have not registered on the new FDL. That needs to be done in order to comment. When you go through the registration, you pick your screen name, password, supply a valid email address, and then they send an email to you with a link to complete the activation.

Did you do this?

KLynn - I saw somewhere that some of the old registrations are screwing up new registrations. I had no issue because, to the best of my knowledge, I was never really registered before, just started commenting. If I registered I sure don't remember doing it. At any rate, I think you are down to a minor problem now and we (by that I mean people that know more than me) can get you the rest of the way home. I will check back here until I know that everybody has made it.

Freepatriot - We already need your services at new juke joint. I fully expect you to make the long hard slog with the rest of us....



Mad Dogs,

Registered at the old FDL. Tried to register at the new and told my user and email already exist.

bmaz, can confirm my old registration is messing things up. I thought I understood I was good to go because of my old registration and it did not recognize me when I tried to login. Then I tried to register again and I am getting a message that my screen name and email have already been registered. I cannot really change any of this...

Well, it's been a long day. Did not get much done on my book or grant writing. I have to go get some shut-eye. The kids have a late start day tomorrow and I am on duty until they are off to school.

I'll state it again, "Help!" and "Thank you!"

Mad Dogs and bmaz, thanks a thousand times over for staying with this mess. I hope to smile again and to read the wealth of information from everyone here going "over" there...

Hey Emptywheel,

Does this mean Next Hurrah is going away? I like you site.

The Firedoglake remodel looks like Katrina was the decorator.

Abstracts instead of full posts bites the big Bush !@#$%^& . Please make them give you full posts. FDL used to be my favorite blog, but Pfffft to them. I'm not going to any blog where I have to load every stinking post in a separate tab.

:( :( :( :(

KLynn - Others probably have a better solution, but here is what I can think of. Send an email tomorrow giving them your user name, password and email address and ask them to remove it, void it, whatever so that you can start out fresh. If you can't get through, send it to EW at the address here on this site (on the sidebar) and ask her to forward it to the techs. If your old one is purged, you should be able to start fresh with no problems. Progress is slow sometimes.....

The techie angels are working overtime for the holiday. Somehow, I got an email telling me okay, NOW you are good to go! So, try again.

Left you a comment. Thank you so MUCH. Now, I'm on EST and I must get some shut-eye in the next ten minutes!

Have a good night! Go Bucks! See you all Tuesday!

mad dogs etal

Unbelievably, I just tried to access FDL and it loaded right up in my opera browser. I didn't change a thing here. Got to Marcy's page too. I'm afraid to close either. *g* But it seems to be working. I believe bmaz may have sprinkled magic dust on the whole affair. Righteous.

Blessings on you all.

Re: all the the font-size comments, if you use a mozilla-based browser like firefox or SeaMonkey, you can scale the font within a page without affecting anything else. I think IE 7 has implemented this too. It's super-simple:

just hit "Ctrl +" to increase font size, and "Ctrl -" to decrease. I think the changes carry over to other pages you load, but it's just as easy to change right back. I just checked this at FDL and it seems to work just fine. And if one Ctrl + doesn't get the job done, do it again. You can use either of the plus/minus key pairs on standard keyboards, the ones next to the backspace or the ones over on the number pad. And you don't need to hit "shift" to get the one next to the backspace, so I guess technically it's "Ctrl =" but whatever.

This should work in firefox or Mozilla on every site that uses standard HTML text.

Try it, you'll like it.

And on Macs, it is the Apple key+ or Apple key- to accomplish increasing or decreasing text size.

What bmaz said at 01:03 plus, that CMD+ and CMD- also perform the same function in Safari.

Emptywheel, I want to thank you so much for TNH. For me personally it has been a lifeline of rationality in highly puzzling times. I share many of the concerns others have already voiced about the ways the new site works, and about what higher-volume comments might mean for us; still, I very much hope that the quality and character of the discussion over at the new place matches the uncommonly high standard we've all created together here, in trying to live up to your model. If in the fullness of time you should decide that a place of one's own works better for what you do than a crowded Lake does, don't worry -- I'm sure we'll all follow to whatever venue you prefer.

Shorter me: Keep the flow going! Please! See you over there.


Mad Dogs, KLynn, jonno-- I would recommend firefox and then do a search for extensions, there are several zoom extensions and I think I remember seeing an extension that allows altering the size of the displayed font. hope this helps. :)

The comments to this entry are closed.

Where We Met

Blog powered by Typepad