Getting the Bum's Rush on FISA

By Mimikatz

This is Emptywheel's bailiwick, but she's travelling, so I'll try to fill a little of the void to give folks a place to discuss the issues.  TPM Muckraker has a good rundown on the issues involved in the Bush/Cheney regime's demand for a quick fix of FISA.  In brief, the FISA court has evidently restricted the ability of the National Security Agency to collect information on multiple surveillance targets under a single warrant and won't allow the NSA to collect intelligence on persons where it is not known whether they are inside or outside the U.S.  Bush/Cheney wants the Attorney General to replace the FISA court in making the necessary determination.  No chance of that, says Leahy.  The Dem proposal is here.  Other key issues are:

Carve-Outs vs. Safeguards. What the Bush administration wants -- and probably has done over the past six years -- is to remove FISA protections from a broad swath of people in the U.S. in order to look for terrorism connections. That has had, and will have, broad implications for what the U.S. intelligence community can collect in terms of domestic communications.

The Dems' idea is to keep the FISA court.  Rockefeller wants a 6 month fix--Feingold wants 90 days--after which Bush/Cheney would have to come back to Congress.  But under Rockefeller's proposal, per TPMM,

after 60 days of surveillance, the administration would have to inform Congress and the FISA Court exactly who has had their communications intercepted. And if the administration believes there's a "significant" pattern of communication between someone in the U.S. and a foreign-based surveillance target, it has to acquire a specific warrant from the FISA Court or end the surveillance.

Other issues:

The Definition of "Significant." So far, the bill allows the Justice Department to issue guidelines defining what qualifies as a "significant" amount of communication between someone in the U.S. and a foreign surveillance target. After six months pass, according to Rockefeller's proposal, the administration -- presumably through the Justice Department, but it's not clear -- would submit a detailed report on how the authorization has worked, including on the definition of "significant," for congressional review, in time for the "sunset" provision ending the temporary fix.

Can the Government "Sit" on a Wire? "Sitting on a wire" is a shorthand way of referring to the NSA demanding, under FISA authority, all the available communications data from a telecom company relative to a given surveillance target, and then unilaterally determining what it needs. . . . It's not clear yet whether, in whatever bill emerges, the NSA or the telecommunications companies will have the responsibility for sorting through the material relevant to the warrant.

Will Telecom Companies Have Immunity from Prosecution? According to the Wall Street Journal, the compromise under negotiation ducks the question. If so, it means that, at least so far, the telecoms don't have any legal immunity for improperly turning over more information about subscribers to the government than the government is entitled to.

Nor should they--keep this one out of the bill.  And finally, the big one:

Disclosing Past Abuses. This has been a sticking point between Democrats and the administration since Alberto Gonzales proposed amending FISA in the spring. The proposal under consideration doesn't include notification of the extent of the surveillance that has occurred since "Program X" began in October 2001.

I'm no expert, or even a lawyer any more, but this seems like a no-brainer.  How can Congress correct abuses of it doesn't even know what happened in the past?  At an absolute minimum, the entirety of the program that existed PRIOR to the hospital visit of Card, Ginzales, Comey et al needs to be disclosed fully to Congress and, since it allegedly is no longer in operation, to the American people, before Bush/Cheney get their fix.  Of course the Dems are afraid that if a terror attack comes before they authorize what Bush/Cheney wants, they will be blamed.  But they will be blamed anyway; that is SOP for the Rovians. 

Via TPMM again, Marc Rothenberg of the Electronic Privacy Information Center notes that

"We've never wrestled with the question of constructing privacy safeguards for U.S. citizens that are subject to massive surveillance by a U.S. surveillance agency.  Sen. Frank Church's nightmare was that U.S. intelligence capabilities for surveillance would be turned on the American people. The thin black line on that issue turns out to be the FISA court -- the only form of intervention between power of the intelligence community and American citizens."

Let's strengthen, not obliterate, that line.  Spencer Ackerman has more on "Program X" here.

Comments

[marksb]

Yup. The TPM article I think is correct: programs are very doable technically. But it's also a large-scale situation with a lot of techies and analysts working. I've been wondering for awhile why the Bush gang are working to "clean up" the FISA law when they usually just do whatever the hell they feel like anyway and blow smoke if Congress tries any oversight. It makes sense that possibly there's heartburn within the workers and managers in NSA and other involved organizations, as well as blow back by Telecoms and data contractors about legal liability. It's a rather dark nasty mess though, isn't it?

[phred]

It is outrageous that the Dem leadership is even considering acting on revising FISA right now. Every monumentally stupid piece of legislation they have passed during the Bush administration has happened when they have been in a rush, before elections or now before recess. And every time, the Dems come back and say, "Gee, I didn't know that provision was there...". Enough already. Go destroy someone else's Constitution -- I'm rather fond of ours.

If FISA needs to be fixed, fine. But it can wait until AFTER recess and AFTER Bush has come clean on all the particulars of the spying he's been trying so hard not to talk about. And then, lets all consider appropriate changes together. You know, as if we were a democracy.

[patience]

Hey while you guys are looking into the wiretap thing. What do you think of using the State prosecutions of telecom/NSA to do the legwork to determine the shape of the actual illegal programs.

Some one on reddit seems to have compiled a series of anonymous blog comments that point to the Main Public Utilities Commission v. Verizon/NSA as a sample of where to start.

See http://reddit.com/info/2blgs/comments

for details. Seem like this should be right up Next Hurrah and FireDogLake's alley.

[P J Evans]

patience

You mean 'deep modem'? We know about it; the readership overlaps. People are looking at it. (Remember, those posts are probably by two, maybe more, people. Sorting out what's good and what's not is a pain.)

[patience]

So are those people "looking at it" related to the blogging world?

I mean the people at reddit have already parsed out the most actionable parts with links and have transported some of the case files to more accessible web hosts. It would be nice to see some blogsphere chatter indicating that the wheels are turning, already.

I mean what has to happen, the evidence needs to be gift wrapped or what? The TPM comments are already 3 days old.

Go read the threads there.

We spent all this time chasing the minutia of the Plame case, now we have 5 state cases that can blast the doors on the wire tapping thing wide open- the beauty is it's already a matter of public record.

[JohnJ]

patience:
Ironic, I see people on the blogs taking a conservative approach to that information.

This is either the godsend we were looking for, or a very clever trick to make the "liberals" look bad. If even one investigation is a red herring, it will go a long way in the MSM to making us all look like fools. (Remember the Bush TNG papers that Rove probably forged to discredit the real ones, and CBS).

Over a decade of these snakes makes people very cautious.

[oldtree]

I am not convinced that competent people are working on the solution to this issue. I think that they all have skeletons that make them susceptible to pressure such as extortion to do what the exu wants. It is pretty clear that they accidentally mined everyone's data, and dead clear that they are targeting their political enemies and certainly their friends and have voluminous files. That means they know where everything is buried. Does any adult out there think that they are not blackmailing anyone they have dirt on?
sounds like a bunch of school children incapable of understanding the play they are actors within

[Sojourner]

Phred at 16:06 -- I am with you! What is the hurry? There has been too much stuff crammed through at the last minute, and I suspect that is part of the reason we are in the mess we are. The programs are clearly illegal, and maybe the law does need to be updated. But I don't think hurrying things along is going to help, unless the telecoms are just nervous.

[phred]

Sojourner -- I don't think it is only the telecoms that are nervous... I think Cheney is trying to figure out a way he can keep his spying going. So by whipping everyone into a frenzy based on Chertoff's gut feeling (and with the Chiquita revelations, why the hell should we trust his judgment?!?) is simply a way to put Congress in panic mode before recess. Then while no one is looking a staffer in the dead of night can slip in a provision right before the vote -- and bingo all the delicate little tushies in the WH are covered. Just like they were by the Military Commissions Act.

I cannot believe that Pelosi and Reid are doing this. They are fools if they think there won't be political fallout from this. But as some of us have been speculating, perhaps they have something to hide themselves.

[Dismayed]

I can't believe the Dems are considering giving one inch on this. The law was absolutely fine as is, and if Bush co had been doing their jobs there were actionable leads to prevent 9-11. Poor surveilliance wasn't the problem.

The WH has stepped way out of line here, and they want the Dems to fix it for them, no way.

This BS of national security, can't talk about shit is a crock - anyone with a clue in the US pretty much understands the tools that are available, and pretty much assumes the administration is using all of them. Every single thing posted on this blog goes through some sort of processing as do all of our phone logs, records, etc. We are marked, make no mistake.

They've been doing what Nixon did and far worse. They need to answer up first. And we need to quit being afraid of being blamed for every damn thing. I'm so sick of hearing that. Something is seriously wrong in Washington. The Dems aren't stepping up, and I'm not sure why.

My little league coach always said, "if your going to strike out, strike out swinging, don't stand there afraid to take a cut."

I want to see some swinging! Go for the fences.

[radiofreewill]

These kinds of things tend to get worked out in back rooms, but let's look at what Bush wants - and what he might be willing to do to get it:

Bush wants a 'free pass' on the following because '911 changed everything':

- to escape War Crimes charges for electively starting a War of Aggression
- to not have Torture pinned on him
- to avoid having the Tillman Cover-up hung on him
- to stop any more talk of who outed Valerie Plame Wilson
- to prevent disclosure of the details of the USA firings
- to cut-off further discussion of the Hospital visit

To achieve this list, plus much more, Bush plans to back out of the saloon with his guns drawn so he can make a clean getaway 1/20/09.

Here are his guns:

- Threaten to invade/attack Iran
- Threaten Martial Law
- Threaten another Terrorist Attack
- Threaten to (continue to) Spy on citizens without warrants

The Dems really have only two options - Negotiate in a back-room or Ppenly Challenge through impeachment.

Of course, since they're Our Dems, they'll negotiate a Back Room Deal - but we shouldn't be happy with this, even if it appears to take invading Iran off the table, or placing All surveillance - foreign and domestic - under the protections of FISA or the 4th, or decrease the level of anxiety over another Terrorist Attack or mitigate against the possibility of Martial Law.

We need a national dialogue on how we are going to keep ourselves safe in a changing world, instead of being infantilized through the standard BushCo line of "Do as I say, not as I do - We know what's best for you."

[ab initio]

Before the current FISA is amended I'd first enshrine an iron clad right to privacy for all American citizens. That is no American's personal and private information can be obtained unless either by a warrant issued by a competent and independent judicial court on probable cause of crime or the American citizen has voluntarily provided it. Further such personal and private information cannot be disseminated without explicit permission of the citizen.

With the technology the way it is the government and corporations have the necessary technology for surveillance, tapping and storage of all communications and transactional data on each and every citizen.

The only protection that citizens can have is legal with a set of strong and unambiguous legislation and with massive penalties for breach including individual liability for government and corporate personnel who engage in proscribed activities.

Unless we as citizens and the liberal blogosphere make this our priority our elected representatives beholden to corporate and government interests will sacrifice our liberties at the euphemistic altar of "national security".

Our legal structure is more than adequate to combat terrorists since the majority of that work is preventing a safe harbor and breeding ground in their own societies which means a substantial change in our policy of hypocrisy.

[Publicus]

Here's a good tip for the Democrats. If the Republicans want some legislation, don't even let it get to the floor.

Every single thing they do is designed to increase their power...and their abuse of power.

Save the Constitution. We need legislative deadlock. Now.

[Mimikatz]

So now we have not-so-subtle warnings of attacks on the Capitol between now and September 12. Seems designed to ensure a congressional recess. Why?

At least Feingold is pushing to slow things down, talking about withholding consent of the bill isn't changed sufficiently. The observation that forced speed is at the root of many of our worst recent laws applies here in spades. Take your time, Congress!

And speaking of holds, Stevens relented and the Senate passed the ethics bill. This should encourarge several retirements on the GOP side, as "public service" will no longer be as lucrative and they will almost certainly still be in the minority, opening up seats in which the Dems can be competitive. Just look here at all the potential retirements.

[mainsailset]

Knowing this gang, it's alot of excitement to get Congress out of town so Abu can slip out the back door and Bush gets his recess appt. Besides, those Republicans need some rest after having to work so hard since Jan to stonewall, it's tough work.

[nolo]

i simply appear to thank
EW for posting -- lolo, over
at my place, said she was going
out of her mind waiting for
EW to post -- even knowing
that she had a (stellar!)
speaking role, today at yearly kos. . .

that is all -- thanks for all
you do, EW! -- p e a c e

[bmaz]

Suddenly this is a rush now? Congress, GOP and Dems both, affirmatively went to Bush when this imbroglio first broke out and wanted to discuss how they could work with the White House to amend and streamline FISA, and otherwise modernize electronic intercept laws and privacy protections that might otherwise restrict the same, both after 9/11 and the acknowledgment of the wiretapping/surveillance program. The response from the Administration was "we're not interested; we have all the authority we need from the inherent constitutional power of the commander in chief coupled with the AUMF. Now the Democrats are traitors for not immediately authorizing all Bush requested changes, without seeing specifics, in fleeting week. It is really hard to understand how every journalist in the MSM isn't humiliated and chagrined by the continual bill of bogus goods they have been sold from the outset by the Bushies. But nooooooo; they still report this shit like it is reasonable and intelligent.

[sojourner]

I don't know which is sadder -- that BushCo is resorting to the same old infantile terrorist threat stuff, or that members of Congress are actually going to break at this most critical time. Again, they are putting their own interests ahead of the nation's!

As Phred noted previously after my last post, it is not just the telecoms who are worried. The way the Democratic leadership has been acting, they are in bed with the Republicans somehow, and they are equally culpable in what is going on.

I am being very tongue-in-cheek saying this, but if Congress leaves town and Bush manages to take over, he can abolish Congress. At least we know what to expect from him and his cronies. I don't think that Congress has done much to stop him, so they won't be missed...

Then, one day, maybe the US will be blessed with some nice benevolent dictator...

[tryggth]

I think what happened is that while not finding on the 4th, FISA found no legislative foundation for the current program. And they found that in a relatively innocuous scenario. Both parties probably overseas, but no backing info guaranteeing that... one party may have well been in the US. The issue comes down to not being able to locate the parties.

However, there are several things going on here...

One is that you can read the secret FISA ruling in the the open discussion of the legislative modification. And therein hangs the "big" issue.

The court ruled that what was happening before, without sufficient probably cause, was illegal. The participating telcos were party to this denial of un-based surveillance. They are liable for the rights violation. Their liability is huge. HUGE. Their well paid corporate lawyers didn't protect them from this. And now BushCo wants to give them this protection. Worth billions. Quid pro quo Clarice, quid pro quo...

[meh]

The guy's information is neither a godsend nor a red herring. It's psychotic. There's not an ounce of technical legitimacy in anything he says. He has fixated his obsession on those state cases because he has some very narrow knowledge of them. If he had anything more concrete he would have shared it by now. His rambling dissertations go back to at least 3 months. He knows the clock is running out. Even a hint that made just a little bit of sense would help his (and our) case.

[phred]

tryggyth -- I cancelled my phone with Verizon awhile back and explained to the flustered young man on the phone that I would not do business with a company that could not be bothered to so much as ask for warrant before turning over my phone records. Whether or not my personal records were in fact turned over was beside the point -- had the Feds asked, Verizon would have done it.

When the class action lawsuit comes down the pike, I want to be a member of the class. I hope the the companies involved have to pay and pay big.

[AJ]

meh -- I'm with you on the anonymous poster. It would be nice if all the evidence to convict these traitors was suddenly available on-line and all we had to do was look at it and bring charges.

But things that look too good to be true usually are ... and I think there's something a little suspicious about the selling of this guy's posts. He could be "deep modem". Or he (or she) could be a MIT student (or two) pulling a grad school prank, or s/he could be Unabomber-light.

[JohnJ]

I don't want to discount "deep modem" completely. Those post have all the marks of someone who is throughly disgusted with what is going on, but is trying to keep their job, and their FREEDOM while under a security clearance. There is just enough information there to hopefully be hard to trace but will lead an investigator to the real story. If your gonna' do it, that would be the way.

As long as no one does anything stupid like take a MSM camera team with them while they investigate (Rove would love to make the progressive blog look like raving lunatics), there isn't any harm in following up. It is getting way too late if this is real, Cheney's Storm Troops have the same information and will "render" the sources and the information in a flash.

Or as AJ said:
"Or he (or she) could be a MIT student (or two) pulling a grad school prank, or s/he could be Unabomber-light."

[AJ]

To be honest I also found the posts by patience here to be a little suspicious -- I don't know if that person is a regular poster here or not, but s/he seemed a little too interested in drumming up interest in the anonymous poster.

[dougR]

Well, the seductive thing about the "mystery poster" is that we're all looking for/hoping for a Deep Throat. So much is hidden, one can only make educated guesses, and sometimes the line between one's educated guess and sheer paranoia is easy to cross. I will say this: reading his/her/their posts has educated me a bit as to what MIGHT be going on behind the NSA/NSC/White House stone wall. I frankly haven't let myself think too much about what it is the White House is hiding, heretofore, partly because of that line between common sense and paranoia--it's hard to know (esp. for slightly obsessive people like me) when you've crossed it. (The troubling thing sbout this administration is that it REWARDS paranoiac speculation--because there's almost always a 'there' there.)

I will say one other thing about the "mystery poster"--he/she/they have a special interest in war crimes implications (i.e., about secret communications relating to renditions, torture protocols, etc., that implicate people in the White House/DOD/Congress--and even some Democratic leaders who by assent could be considered complicit in what the "quaint" Geneva Conventions refer to very unequivocally as war crimes). The mystery poster seems to think that fear of war crimes prosecutions animates a good deal of the administration's stonewalling. And I appreciate the heads-up these posts provide: We ARE committing war crimes, and HERE are the perpetrators.

Yesterday I almost sent a packet of the "mystery posts" off to Dana Priest, at the Washington Post, but I was stymied by the WaPo website: her e-mail is apparently highly classified! Then I read over the posts again, and became convinced the "mystery poster" is a brilliant but disturbed inmate at a mental institution who gets to use the computer in the dayroom a couple of hours every afternoon. At this point, I don't know what to think, but it's been an interesting two days, thanks to the brilliant, elusive, Scarlet Pim--excuse me, Mystery Poster!

[AJ]

I read pretty much everything the mystery poster wrote(the war crimes stuff is certainly appears to be the impetus for him/her as you say) and have gone back and forth on it -- but I'm coming down a bit on the side of prank simply because there seems to be something of an effort to market the posts across the lefty blogosphere, encouraging people to spend a lot of time and effort on something that has the tell-tale signs of wild goose chase written all over it.

On the other hand -- this would be one pretty elaborate prank that I am sure the righty blogsters would not be capable of ... but it would be a snap for the merry pranksters at MIT or CalTech.

[mainsailset]

I seem to remember some discussion back in '05 that the warrantless wiretaps were on whole servers...what if they are on, say select servers for Pakistan or Canada's?

[Mary]

Sec 1802 of FISA already allows the AG to authorize warrantless wiretaps of foreign power to foreign power communications, but (and herein lies the rub and some of what I keep re-mentioning on self-interest being at the heart of part of the revolt and hospital scene) under that provision, the AG is required to certify under oath that they are not also scooping up US persons communications.

So therein lies the rub.

Now, here's a kicker - is that rub purely a "FISA" rub - which could be "fixed" by legislative changes, or is it merely the legislative recognition of the Constitutional limitation against general warrants?

Is McConnell asking Congress to attempt to legislatively violate the fourth amendment? I do no buy for a minute that if they were tracking truly foreign to foreign call, even through a US switching station, that FISA or a FISA court would interfere with that. I think what they are doing almost has to be involving what 1802 expressly disallows: using the foreign to foreign exception to sneak in or otherwise include all kinds of US transmissions.

The program was set for 90 day reviews. That means this came up at the first review - probably in March with a possible carryover to April. Why is it an issue now? Well, I'm guessing they hoped that the second rotation might get them a judge with a different opinion on what they were doing, but they got shot down again, and that secondarily this was all pretty much planned, like the MCA which somehow, suddenly "had" to pass before everyone went back to be elected and which all Dem leadership - including Obama and Clinton - absolutely failed to make any effort to block whatsoever.

They schedule the abominations for emergency votes and the Dems cave and cave. You have a handful like Feingold and Whitehouse and Leahy and the rest are distinguishable from Boehner largely by their lesser tan.
'

[P J Evans]

TPM is reporting that some @#$%^&* in the House wants to take out the requirement for probable cause.

[bmaz]

Hey folks. Does anyone have a link to the complete set of postings by this big "mystery poster"? I kind of wrote this off earlier, but since there is nothing else going on, I'll take a better look. I remain firmly in the camp of most of you above; i.e. the "There ain't no free lunch club". I can answer one question, "Patience" is nor a regular poster here, at least not under that handle. Also, there was someone else that appeared here not very long ago with long and rambling comments that were inordinately focused on some states solution; analogous to something one of you mentioned about the mystery poster. I didn't find his stuff vey credible, I would like to compare with this "new" person.

As a little side story, DougR mentioned the possibility of a mental inmate whipping everybody into a frenzy. I have no overt reason to believe that is what is happening here, but it is a valid thought; it also brings back memories. In the early 90's, in a Buddhist Temple on the western edge of Phoenix, 9 monks and assistants were found brutally murdered in an execution like setting. All lined up; all shot in the back of the head. The outcry and press coverage from local, state, national and international press was off the charts; they all had teams camped out here. No detail or angle of the case went uncovered by every print and electronic media source in the world. There were no suspects. The White House was weighing in, Congress people and foreign ambassadors were weighing in. Japan was weighing in. Thailand sent a whole governmental and diplomatic/ambassador team to monitor the situation and press to solve the case. As the days wore on, the frustration with no good suspects grew like a nuclear snowball going downhill. A special task force dedicated to working only this case was formed with significant participation by everyone from the local sheriff's office, to the state Dept. of Public Safety, FBI, US Marshalls, DOJ, Defense Department, US Attys Office, Interpol, Thailand secret police, specialists loaned by the CIA and NSA. The "Temple Task Force" at times had 150 or so detective level personnel and could "deputize" anyone else they needed anytime and anywhere they needed.

As weeks passed, with no credible suspects, the tension was off the charts. Wild theories were being promoted and many took hold with the public. Then one day, out of the blue, the Temple Task Force got a call to their main office in Phoenix. The caller from Tucson quickly got their full attention. The caller, stated that he, and three of his buddies from Tucson, had "done the monk killings". He seemed credible because he recited numerous facts and circumstances specific to the case. The Temple Task Force leadership leaped into action, within minutes sending cars stuffed with their lead investigators flying south to Tucson. Literally; the cars were, from numerous sources, reported to have been on the order of 110mph. They converged in a cloud of dust and exhaust on the location where the caller had phoned from. Yep, wait for it....it was the Tucson Psychiatric Institute.

Undaunted by the fact that their big lead on their case of the century was coming from a patient interred in a psychiatric hospital, and based upon information he relayed that could have been found in any newspaper or CNN report, the Task Force decided to take him into custody and remand him back to Phoenix for questioning and debriefing. The hospital doctors and administrators would not let them leave without the Task Force signing a release saying they knew what they were doing because, the patient was, well, you know, fucking crazy and on medications. That being done, the task force armada of cars sped off back to whence they had come, blazing a return to Phoenix at 110mph. As they approached the outskirts of Phoenix, the tipster said "Hey I'll drive around Phoenix with you and show you where we staged the job and divvied up the loot afterwards, if you'll stop and get me a big bag of food at Jack-in-the-Box. Still undeterred, the Task Force eagerly agreed. The tipster took them on a scenic cruise all over the Phoenix area, randomly pointing out a house here or corner there where he and three childhood friends from Tucson had "done the job". All the while slamming Jumbo Jacks and fries.

Based upon this nut's information, the Task Force sent out a swat squad dressed entirely in black unmarked clothes including black ski masks to hide their faces (my client's later description was that they "looked like fucking ninjas") and went to the homes and businesses of the other three and, armed with full riot gear and automatic weapons, broke down the doors and windows and hauled the suspect out by his hair with multiple M-16s pointed within inches of his face and head. At the time they let loose their shock and awe on one of the three's houses, he was sitting on the couch eating Doritos, watching MTV and passing a few minutes until he was to do his daily ritual of going to the bus stop a half mile away and walking his young niece home. All three of the "other perps" were retrieved in a similar fashion and driven back to Phoenix, again at 110mph with their heads covered with black bags. They were not taken to jail though, nor to the arraignment court. No, they were taken to a series of rooms the Task Force had covertly rented at a local downtown hotel; where they were deprived of sleep, plied with illusory offers of food that never came, and threatened with harm and death to themselves and their families and friends. Police can do "enhanced interrogation techniques" too. As hours stretched into days of this, all of the four "suspects", using facts and scenarios spoon fed to them by the investigators, confessed to the execution killing of the nine monks. After completing his confession, one of them deleriously asked "can I see my mother and go home now?" the Task Force found absolutely no physical evidence of involvement. No murder weapons (and they had ballistics establishing the make AND model of the gun causing all the deaths of the monks, a specific .22 caliber rifle), no stolen loot, nothing.

Interestingly, while the three named accomplices were being driven back to Phoenix at 110mph and with bags over their heads, another detective on the task force working a different angle, had at almost the same exact time, seized a rifle from some local teenagers living within a couple of miles of the Temple where the killing occurred. The rifle was an exact match for the make and type of the murder weapon. As this detective walked into the Task Force headquarters, he held the rifle over his head like Charlton Heston and shouted, and this is a direct quote, i got the murder weapon right here and "it's got fucking monk blood all over it"! He was quickly admonished by superiors to "put that thing somewhere, because we got the perps responsible for this crime on the way from Tucson right now". The rifle that eventually turned out to be the murder weapon was unceremoniously thrown behind a door in an unused office, never tagged or marked as evidence, and forgotten about. The "Tucson Four" were charged with capital murder, denied bail, and had the death penalty alleged against them based upon their "confessions". And so they sat in jail for months until somebody stumbled upon the forgotten rifle and submitted it for routine testing. weeks later, when the routine test disclosed it was indeed the murder weapon, the Task Force immediately arrested two local youths living near the temple, who then confessed to the killings and turned over stolen property, the other gun used in the killings, etc. The task force members repeatedly questioned them about ties to the "Tucson Four"; but their were none. When this failed, the Task Force tried to cut a deal with them to plea to lesser charges and no death penalty if they would lie and falsely testify that the "Tucson Four" were involved. I ended up representing two of the plaintiffs from Tucson in the civil rights case against the government for their wrongful arrest, abuse and tortured confessions. We did well.

The moral of this overly long story is that a false tip from someone in the looney bin can really cause untold problems.

[P J Evans]

bmaz
i have a file at home with links.
This is part of it:

http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/003235.php
http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/003268.php
http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/003805.php
http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/003820.php
http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/003832.php

http://constantpated.blogspot.com/2007/03/white-house-timeline-on-us-attorney.html
http://constantpated.blogspot.com/2006/08/nsa-verizon-maine-billing-activity.html
http://constantpated.blogspot.com/2007/03/nsa-jttf-targeting-us-government.html

There are a couple more threads on TPM that seem to have posts (probably more than that, but finding them is a matter of reading every comment thread). Constantpated is stuff that's similar in subject and style.

I've extracted the comments that seem to be from Anonymous / Deep Modem into several Word docs. Email me at pj dot evans at usa dot net if you want them.

[bmaz]

Thanks PJ. I'll take a look at this stuff first soon as I can today and if I have any questions, I'll drop a line.

[meh]

I never posted here either until yesterday and I think the mystery poster is either a fraud or someone with mental illness. It could be a prank, too.

The guy postulates the existence of a conspiracy in the WH, DoJ, NSA and "outside counsel" to subvert the Constitution and elevate the interests of the Republican party over the interests of The People. We on the left have been frantically searching for a smoking gun for the better part of a decade. This guy shows up and tells everyone in mysterious terms, "You're looking in the wrong place."

That's a pretty good hook and explains a lot of the interest this guy has generated.

[P J Evans]

The guy postulates the existence of a conspiracy in the WH, DoJ, NSA and "outside counsel" to subvert the Constitution and elevate the interests of the Republican party over the interests of The People.

Well, it fits what's going on pretty well, whether it's one or multiple posters.

Checking it is the hard part.

[bmaz]

Hey meh. Welcome then. I have seen your call sign somewhere around though, if not here. At least I think so. FDL or Washington Monthly (Kevin Drum)? At any rate, whether nuts, well intentioned, both or neither; there is something that doesn't sit right about his story and info. In the first place, posting the "tip of all secret tips" on the internet and it's infinitely traceable digital spiderweb doesn't seem like a bright option for "somebody with all the knowledge on the inside" when you are trying to bust bad government actors for, um, you know, trapping, tracing and recording digital communications including the internet.

[Mary]

bmaz - that's some story! The kind of story that never seems to get the same press as "the worst of the worst - that's what we have at GITMO" stories. Thanks for sharing it.

[dougR]

Well, looney or not, the mystery correspondent's posts are a rip-roaring read. The overall picture they paint, even if a lot of the individual posts are obscure and (perhaps deliberately) hard to understand, is all too plausible--perhaps more so, the less one knows about the actual security-state apparatus, telco operations, internet protocols, and whatnot. I mentioned in a post upstream that I'd thought about sending a packet of the posts to Dana Priest at the Post, partly for authentication and partly for leads demanding followup (if any), and I still think someone as hooked into the spy business as, say, Larry Johnson, might be able to look at the posts and separate the BS from the kernels of truth, if any.

bmaz, looking forward to your take. Thanks for the story.

[bmaz]

DougR - Thats why I told a story; I have no idea about the mystery posts. If true the implications and ramifications are immense, and they could well be true. Very easily could be more noise. Who knows? This is exactly one of the insidious offshoots, in some part, of the blight on credibility the DOJ and government in general currently suffers from. There are always wild rumors and conspiracy theories floating in a complex society. But we are currently in territory that even Nixon would have thought beyond pale. With no nominal threshold of credibility from even the DOJ, there is no firm ground from which to rule out anything.

[jackie]

My question is;
' Is there anything in this 'bill' regarding making it retro-active? Therefore covering both the white houses'/the telo companies/and friends ASSES?
There is NO WAY that these 'folks' in the white house have suddenly realized that 'OOPS they've been bad, sorry, lets fix it...'
BS. B.S... They are only afraid that the truth will come out and they are continueing their manipulation of the laws.
Blackmail and Fear are powerful weapons. Bush, Rove, Cheney, Rumsfeld between them undoubtably know every 'dark secret' of every player in this game, good guys and bad guys, it doesn't matter.
These people are dangerous, not stupid, but they ARE criminals ..Everyone needs to stop treating them as if they are worthy of special treatment, they are not....

[deep modem]

Mystery Poster mystery unraveling?

Mother Lode of "Anonymous" postings has been found at CREW.
Just follow the link.