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October 18, 2006


I thought Nancy Pelosi laid out a pretty good agenda of what we would do first when we take over. One thing in regard to the war. I think that the dems just need to make it clear that we would be different from the republicans in that, we would be studying the problem. For my point of view this position validates that it's a quagmire and that there is no simple solution. We need to be the party of rational thought. I would like to hear the dems aknowledge that we don't know for sure what to do, we don't have access to the intelligence like the controlling party and that we will call in experts and study the issue looking for the best possible outcome instead of going in with a preconceived notion of what we will do. I think that this issue can be turned so that "not having a plan" works to advantage. Bush had a plan, it was a bad one. We are going to wait until we have access to all the information and then look for the best possible outcome. I think I would rather hear candidates say "I don't have an answer for that, yet. And this is a good thing for all of American. This is a mess that will take careful thought and consideration, not quick impulsive answers."

The Contract with America, the manifesto which is so often trotted out in stark contrast to the Democratic "no plan" this year 1) was unknown to the vast majority of voters on Election Day 1994 and 2) consisted of nothing but poll-tested pablum (e.g., "we will allow a balanced budget to be voted on" -- not that we'll craft or PASS one). Pelosi's set of proposals is far more concrete (and more desired by the public), yet the press persists in its "I can't see anything from Democrats" charade -- proving once and for all that theatrics (Newt standing out on the steps of the Capitol) matter to them far more than substance.

That Times piece you link to, Dem, was written by a former Reaganite who's turned on the administration. He goes on to basically suggest (and presumably hope) Dems will possibly overreach like the Pubs after '94, and be squelched by an newly resurgent Bush. I think he misses some big diffrences: Clinton wasn't nearly as unpopular in '94 as Bush is now (Rothenberg said the other day he was between 44-48%), and much of what disaffection there was was based on an economy still slowly emerging from the Bush I recession. The Gingrich class, however, mistakenly believed the election meant the public had joined them in far right field; all Clinton had to do was "stay his course" and wait for the economy to turn around, and defeating them was easy.

This Bush, by contrast, is facing a hatred far deeper, both for the way things have gone (in Iraq and New Orleans), and for pursuing an agenda that was never really in line with a majority of Americans (the public might have accepted what he fallaciously campaigned on in 2000, but not what he's actually attempted). But for the plenary indulgence bestowed by 9/11, he and his gang would have been tossed out long ago. So, if Democrats gain a majority and aggressively push their agenda, they will be doing what the public actually wants, and be rewarded for it, not punished.

People that don't play sports can't understand what a pep band can mean. Just a pep drum at the right time. We had a big High School and could get a band for Girls Basketball, at least a minimum. Some great band people. Even on a trip in a school bus across a very big state, we carried as many in the band and cheering squad as we could. They were a part of our team.

When I shot fouls, I signaled the drummer if he forgot to start his steady beat. "boomp, boomp, ...," And I sync'd to it. After a while he never had to be reminded. I shot a very good percentage, always ranked in the top of the state. :)

Maybe the Dems now have started the drum. If so, it will only help in 2006, and maybe they will learn something for 2008.

"boomp, plan, boomp, plan, ...,"

Oh, an aside.
That same drummer and one other band member got in trouble in a couple of courses over the years. Math mainly.
They needed extra study, and even work after class, but rather than have them sit out the games, I tutored them and others on the trips, on the bus. Our teachers said if I was going to tutor them, there was no problem. No problem whatsoever with them going.
Their grades went up, and I ended up tutoring a lot of people for money as well.

That is when I thought I might be a math and science teacher and coach girls basketball. The dreams of youth! The dreams of youth. That is still my idea of the quiet simple life.

Beat your drum boy, beat your drum and you will do well in algebra.

The new Dem majority in Congress, assuming the Dems do win, will not be more conservative, as Sherrod Brown will balance Bob Casey, John Tester will balance Harold Ford, and Whitehouse is liberal and McCaskill is on many issues. In the House there will be 5-8 new reps from red and purple areas, but also the likes of Mary Jo Kilroy, Lois Murphy, Diane Farrell, Patty Wetterling, and some of the others. The Dems will be smart and not do things like try to repeal the late-term abortion ban. Instead, they will do more modest moves like restoring funding for international family planning.

The Dems can pass legislation, but presumably Bush will find his veto pen under his desk and start using it. Thus, some of the legislation that a Dem Congress passes won't survive.

But this will allow the Dems to draw a stark contrast with the Repubs at a time when the public is most likely to be watching, to see what the Dems do. I believe that is behind much of Nancy Pelosi's strategy. The 21 R Senators up for reelection in 2008 in particular have to think long and hard about what positions they want to be identified with. Thus, some symbolic legislation will survive a veto, like stem cell research, but some won't.

What will be really interesting is the Congress' reaction when Bush starts snubbing it--refusing to make cabinet officers and others available for hearings, refusing to carry out laws etc. Assuming a Dem wave that carries off a few incumbents, what will the R's do then? They have to be looking to 2008 and their own survival. I think that the Dems shouldn't try to provoke a showdown, just competently go about passing legislation and starting a few low-key investigations, and sooner or later Bush will feel cornered and lash out. There will be a confrontation. If it is over something popular, like ending the Iraq War, it could greatly redound to the Dems' benefit.

Another tack the Dems could take is to establish commissions which are appointed by the leaders of both parties in Congress to develop proposals on thinks like health care and maybe taxes, to get around Bush. This is a way to work in a bipartisan fashion and build trust with those who are willing to be truly bipartisan.

"The Democrats don't have a plan" is, and has always been, a shiny bauble to distract the media and the right-wing base from the fact that the Republicans don't have a plan to govern, just a plan to win and to maintain political power. They have slogans, giveaways to groups of their supporters, and ideologically-dictated programs that they continue to insist must work, no matter how badly they fail, but nothing intended to actually "provide for the general welfare."

Republicans don't care about governing. Democrats do. That's why we don't have simplistic sound-bite "plans." We may need to get better at developing those to win more elections, but we know they're useless once we're in power.

"They have to be looking to 2008 and their own survival"

Mimikatz, this is a key point. The greatest power the GOP had in 1981-82 was not just their hugely increased membership, but the fear of those Dems who'd survived the 1980 election that Reagan and Co. were coming to get them in the next cycle. This fear was what propelled so many Dems (in the House esp.) to go along with GOP policy. They weren't nearly so cooperative after they'd won 28 of the 37 seats back in the '82 midterm.

Many GOP analysts mistakenly believe their own propaganda -- first, that the Dems are at heart a bunch of way-out lefties, and, second, that they won't be able to resist going as hog-wild as Pubs did in '95-'96. The public will instead see a party pushing legislation that majorities in the country WANT, and, as you say, a stubborn, listens-only-to-his-courtiers President, who'll insist on keeping to his own unpopular positions regardless.

People who promote "Dems will now be held responsible and suffer in '08" are over-learning the lesson of 1994 and forgetting the result of 1930 -- Dems took back one house and got within a single seat of the other, but the country still blamed only Hoover and his party two years later.

the Democrats don't have a plan ???

here's the plan:

Mr Conyers, you may call your first witness

that's the plan

and about impeachment:

we don't introduce an imprachment resolution until presnit bush refuses to answer the questions

should take about a week

I agree, Dentom. Looking over the list of the 21 R's who will be up in 2008, more than a few will probably retire, as they will no longer be chairman in any event. I think the landscape in 2008 will be very different from what it is now, with the candidates probably not among the current crop of supposed front-runners. And the House election will look diofferent.

I like 1930-1932 as analogies. No one knew in 1928 just how bad it would be 4 years later. And while some of us feared it would be bad if Bush won in 2004, even I didn't think it would be this bad, mostly because I overestimated the GOP Congress. I think many Bush voters are sorry now, and sorrier still about Congress. I don't think they'll get out from under this easily. But then, I go back to the "strong Dem" days.

The Dems need to prove to a skeptical public that they can govern, that they have the ideas we know they have. That means no impeachment for the first year, or until the public is clamoring for it.

The Dems need to prove to a skeptical public that they can govern, that they have the ideas we know they have. That means no impeachment for the first year, or until the public is clamoring for it.

I was with you until the very last sentence. No impeachment in the first year? Why on earth not? His known crimes far exceed those of Nixon. And public support of impeachment of Bush for lying in the run up to the Iraqi war is already higher than it ever was for the impeachment of Clinton for whatever it was he was impeached for.

And on top of that public awareness of the issues is much greater.

I challenge you to try this. Go out in the street. Stop people at random, and ask half of them "Should Bush be impeached?" and you will find that 1) a good fraction (probably a majority, depending on where you live) will say yes, and 2) almost all of them will know why, and the nay-sayers will come back with something like "he shouldn't be held responsible for the faulty intelligence."

Ask the other half "Why was Clinton impeached?"

Most Americans already support the idea of impeachment, and the more the rest learn the more will realize that it is not only justified it is necessary to restore our credibility as a nation and reclaim the credibility of our political process.

Impeach Bush. Now.


hearing after hearing about the misbegotten and mismanaged conduct of the war is the best plan...

I live in the inner Bay Area. Even 10 year olds here want Bush impeached. But that's not representative.

I am saying that Dems have to be strong in standing up for principles and trying to get good programs enacted, then let Bush veto them and stiff the oversight committees. Then see where we are. But coming in all partisan and talking impeachment right off the bat (and without a plan that means Pres Cheney) is just silly and will squander what we have spent months building up.

I am saying that Dems have to be strong in standing up for principles and trying to get good programs enacted, then let Bush veto them and stiff the oversight committees. Then see where we are. But coming in all partisan and talking impeachment right off the bat (and without a plan that means Pres Cheney) is just silly and will squander what we have spent months building up.

Joe Lieberman, is that you?

What the heck is "partisan" about demanding that the laws are followed? I happen to be a lifelong Republican from a very red state, and I want to see the bastards nailed to the wall for what they have done. So do a lot of my friends and neighbors. So why don't you?

They clearly lied to start an illegal war which has killed hundreds of thousands of people, have come closer than any enemy in history to breaking the US military, engaged in war profiteering on an unprecedented scale, violated the constitution so many times I've lost count, dragged our nation's honor through the mud and set foreign relations back a hundred years or more, set precedents from torture in secret prisons to the suspension of Habeas Corpus that will imperil our service men and women for generations, ...and I'm just warming up.

What do they have to do to get you riled, shoot somebody in the face in front of witnesses? Loot the US treasury to buy lavish gifts for their buddies? Help Bin Laden escape justice? Rob little old ladies? Pass classified secrets to foreign militants in time of war (in fact, even if not legally)? Or just blab them to all and sundry for political ends?

If what they've done so far doesn't have you calling for impeachment, what, exactly, would?


geez Mimi, you thought we wouldn't toss dead eye dick overboard first ???

the way things are going, the repuglicans just might ditch cheney BEFORE the Democrats take control of Congress

take a deep breath, count to ten, and think "President Pelosi"

it could happen

Iraq ain't getting any better

wait till george explains the difference between "cut and run" and what he's doing in December

November is going to be fun

Impeachement is a two edged sword. That is why it is so seldom used.

It was mainly used to embarass President Clinton.

No one wants the situation where everytime there is a change of power in the congress, then an impeachement of the President is brought up. At the least Government would be brought to a standstill.

That was the major effect of the Clinton impeachement attempt.

I have to say that even Pelosi "gets that."

Impeachement is a two edged sword. That is why it is so seldom used.

Only if you are mired in party-based politics, thinking party A vs, party B instead of We The People vs. specific individuals who we have reason to believe have committed specific criminal acts. Using that thinking you could say the same of any law enforcement tool. Arrest warrants, jury trials and so forth? Double edged swords. We can't use them to prosecute criminals because when it's their turn to run the nut house again, they'll use them to persecute us.

No one wants the situation where every time there is a change of power in the congress, then an impeachment of the President is brought up.

Agreed. But no one is suggesting that either. What we are demanding is that in this specific instance one small group of people who are believed to have committed a specific list heinous crimes be held accountable. They should face trial for their actions, and not get away with it in the (rather foolish, IMHO) hope that their supporters will let subsequent Democratic criminals off the hook as well.

At the least Government would be brought to a standstill.

Which is far, far better than letting it run amok. That is, after all, what the "checks" in "checks and balances means--to bring something to a stop rather than cheering as it runs over a cliff. And takes us with it.

That was the major effect of the Clinton impeachment attempt.

And there you demonstrate one of my earlier points. They didn't just attempt to impeach Clinton, they actually impeached him. Over what? I challenge you to tell me without looking it up.

Bush & Cheney, on the other hand, should be impeached for lying to start an illegal war, and reelated activities. And I assert that pretty much everyone understands what the issue is. Even people who believe that they would be cleared in a fair impeachment understand and agree that the charges (if true) are serious.


A plan as an instrument flight plan in IFR conditions requires alternate airports to go to in order to be able to safly land the airplane if the original airport becomes unsafe for landing JLB

So you say that impeaching Clinton was wrong and so now you wish to impeach the Bush ADMINISTRATION because they thought we should invade Iraq.

I understand that. But how do you do it. You believe it was wrong. They believe it correct. They won't back down on that. They can't.
So (and I said this elsewhere) Jerry sees 1 report that says Sadam is an Alien, and 30 others reports say Sadam is an Arab, and Jerry says we must attack the Alien or he will kill us.

You might be able to commit Jerry to the insane asylum, but to jail for lying. You need to understand what "lying" means legally. It does not mean that you are wrong, or foolish. It means that you really don't believe that, and are saying you do, and also have some reason of advantage or other bad thing.
How many politicians could be tried for lying?

The kid says 2+2=5. You are wrong says the other kid. No it is 5, No it is 4. No says another it is 3.
Ok, let us put those kids in detention for a week, all those that disagree with you. By the way what did you say the answer was.


Or if that is not the case, then explain it to me.

"but to jail for lying" should have been ~but NOT to jail for lying~

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