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May 07, 2006

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Al Franken has moved home to Minnesota, got a condo, registered to vote and attended his DFL precinct caucus this March -- Because he is planning to run for the Wellstone Seat in the US Senate in 2008. He already has Mondale's support from the center (Mondale also supported Wellstone strongly) -- but he will be running to defeat Norm Coleman who (assuming he is not in Jail in 2008) will have Karl Rove running his campaign, just like he ran Norm in 2002.

Franken is well aware that Rove has a full set of Air America tapes to chop up and use against him in all sorts of ways -- and he has the books, and the panel discussions and all the rest. Franken believes that you do the cut and thrust against your opponent with satire, irony and humor -- not with personal attacks, and when you start proposing impeachment, or throwing around terms like war criminal and all -- that is the sort of characterization that sours the audience. Wellstone and Hubert Humphrey had the same bright line. Humor, properly used can be a devistating sword as it alienates the audience from the target and provides no easy avenue of response. If people laugh, it is because you caught a characterization with which they agree -- and the snicker or the laugh is a satisfying agreement. Franken is getting ready to do this to Norm Coleman in 2008. His focus on "oversight" is about one of the charges he plans to lay against Coleman --

Few people will vote for a candidate who promises you six months of Impeachment process. They will gladly vote for oversight and major policy changes. Since Franken is planning to run -- I think it quite unlikely he'll be stumping for impeachment very soon -- he is about all those policy issues, and sticking the humor sword in where it is justified.

By the way -- our Congressional District had to select a New DFL'er to run for the House this year -- Martin Sabo who has held the seat since 1978 is retiring. Today the 5th Cistrict Conventio endorsed Keith Ellison on the third ballot. He is a Lawyer, 3 terms in the Minnesota House, he is Black and an active Muslim. (Minneapolis is about 5% black and maybe 1% Muslim). He is most progressive -- saying he supports Sabo's fiscal policy (Sabo was head of the Budget Committee during Clinton's first two years) and Wellstone on Social programs. There could still be a primary in September, but the pressure is on to avoid that. Assuming Ellison does not get knocked out in a primary (and I don't think he will) he will be running in a 76% DFL district. The politics that put this endorsement together are -- to put it mildly -- very interesting.

I'm sure Al's answer on impeachment is a fine one. For someone who's not in the business of telling other candidates what a "fuck up" it is to fall back from counterattacking and saying only what won't "sour the audience," that is.

Nobody's asking him, just as nobody has asked anyone else who uses this excuse to duck the issue, to campaign on impeachment. But if you're against the sanitizing of political speech, then be against the sanitizing of political speech.

You know I feel much the same as Franken but for a different reason. (I admit I only skimmed over some of the post and will go back and read it all after I leave my first impression here.)

If the Democrats decide to go the impeachment route and fight back they must be united. It's the disarray that makes it easy to pick off those who fight back as "moonbats who are out of touch". Just look what the right and the MSM did to Feingold after he proposed the censure resolution. They were able to paint him as a left wing crazy because not many others were willing to stand up with him.

Just think back to the conventions, anyone not caught up in group think can see that the Republicans as a whole are crazy, but because they were united it makes an average American Joe think twice and question whether he is the crazy one for doubting.

There is almost this oddball way of thinking for Washington Democrats. They think they are all leaders so they refuse to follow when a true leader like Feingold steps forward, or even further back, when Dean stepped forward. I personally didn't like Dean but agreed with some of what he said and think that Washington Democrats should have definitely jumped on his bandwagon. For instance the confederate flag lover, Dean made the mistake of stating it like we should pander to them, give them what they want on gun rights to win them over. That is wrong, but I agree with the underlying statement, that poor and middle class Americans (even in the south) should be voting Democratic, that the Democratic party has their interests at heart and Washington Democrats should have been all over that.

Back to my original point, I wonder if Franken doesn't have this in the back of his mind. I wonder if he is thinking if some well known Democrat(s) step forward to suggest that impeachment is warranted, and the rest of the party doesn't follow, it will play right into Republican hands. It will appear like a crazy idea to the average Joe, just like strength in numbers appears reasonable even when it is actually crazy.

I also want to say that Democrats only think they are leaders but they are simply followers of Washington conventional wisdom. Unfortunately it's a broken system. It's like Washington has it's weather man and he can only predict the current weather without seeing the storm system that is coming. "Conventional wisdom says it's sunny outside! Don't upset everyone by talking about storms!"

Ok, I read the whole thing and have a couple of other impressions now. First of all, I think you are reading Franken more literally than he meant about the conventions. Let's say that at the convention someone had in their speech, "The president is so horrible we need to send him to the Hague, try him for crimes against humanity, convict him, and hang him!" Wouldn't you agree that that statement needs to be toned down or removed? I think Franken would agree. Some political speech does need to be sanitized, but not all.

It appears to me that Franken, Marshall, Yglesias et al are saying that impeachment talk is jumping the gun. When there is no oversight by either congress or the MSM then there is no smoking gun for the public to agree to impeachment. The platform should be run on step 1, oversight. We shouldn't be jumping right into step 2, 3, 4, or 5 just yet. The general public is aware enough of the scandals brewing to easily want oversight to see what exactly is going on and who is responsible. It is a step towards impeachment if the evidence against the president is there, and that would be a good campaign rebuttal against the Republicans right there. All a Democratic candidate would have to say is, "Why are the Republicans afraid of oversight, what are they hiding from the American public? If the evidence is there, then yes, it may lead to impeachment or other consequences for those involved. But if it isn't then Republicans have nothing to fear, and yet they are afraid."

I'd also like to see Demcratic candidates juxtapose the secretiveness of this administration against the spying on regular American citizens. It's the opposite of what this country was built to be, the government is supposed to be by, of, and for the people. They should be accountable to us while leaving us alone.

I'm sure Josh would like to believe that what he said amounts to worrying that impeachment is jumping the gun, but the state of affairs is such that the logic one would normally use to get to that point -- and which Josh did in fact try to use -- leaves us with a formula for impeachment that is impracticable. He ends up arguing impeachment out of existence in his effort to graft "reasonableness" onto a set of unreasonable facts.

In the end, he's left defending the proposition that it's unfair to impeach a president who hasn't received written notice that it's illegal to break the law, and unconstitutional to usurp the power of other branches of Congress.

Did anyone see Pelosi this morning? She laid a number of things on the table that a Democratic Controlled Congress could do. One thing -- break into the Energy bill and take away all the subsidies and tax advantages from Big Oio -- and use it to invest in R & D as well as infrastructure for alternative fules. Now the average voter will be far more interested in such an enterprise than they will be in the process of impeaching Bush. Now if you have hearings on the secret Cheney Energy plan running right along with financing a ten year plan for Energy Independence -- you have something that will appeal very broadly for which Dems will get Credit, and Republicans will stand accused. And there are lots of votes there -- especially since Ethanol is made in Iowa, Nebraska, Missouri, Kansas, Wisconsin, Minnesota and N & S Dakota.

I think our future Speaker knows what she is doing.

Kagro X, I think you might have misread Marshall's post too. He isn't saying that the president needs to be put on notice; he is saying that someone has to find the evidence that what the president is doing is legal/illegal first.

Here is the disputed paragraph:
But that’s just not the case at the moment because Congress has made little if any effort to rein him in. So impeaching him can’t make any sense because the Congress — in the constitutionally indolent hands of the Republican majority — has made no attempt to oversee the president by constitutional means.

You could read it your way, that the president must be put on notice. You could also read it my way, that congress has to assemble evidence of wrongdoing. Neither has been done even with Bush blatantly thumbing his nose at congress. This should have been like a red flag to a bull, but the bull has blinders on. It's not enough that Bush is saying he can do anything he wants, there has to be evidence that he is actually doing anything he wants against the laws enacted by congress.

I personally don't think of it as a problem for Democratic candidates to run on an impeachment platform or to use the idea in speeches, especially for those who do have evidence. The ones who sit on intelligence or defense committees for instance. I'm also moderating my view on the united front, as long as those who aren't outright calling for impeachment are calling for oversight that might lead to it. They need to say that they want to find out what Cheney's energy task force was up to, or how the intelligence was manipulated to get us into a disasterous war, or look into ALL the domestic spying programs and that they suspect that there are political spy programs going on not just spying on possible al Qaeda cells, and the torture and rendition of prisoners, and voting irregularities in Ohio, Georgia, Maryland, and Florida etc, and the lobbyist scandals in Washington...and if it leads to impeachment, so be it. I'd especially like to see them list it like that and include more that I might have missed. Just point out all the corruption and criminality everytime they open their mouths and the public can see that it will lead to impeachment.

I don't believe I've misread Josh. I just believe he's offering gobbledygook in an attempt to gussie up the fear of the substantive issue in the garb of procedural objections, a tactic I've seen close-up enough times -- even on the specific issue of impeachment -- to learn to recognize it.

Josh is a talented enough writer that he knows how to say "assemble the evidence first" if he wants to.

On the united front front, I don't require it until the investigations actually begin. How you get there is a game I'll allow people to play any way they like, so long as they're not painting us into any corners that actually or effectively take impeachment off the table. I believe Josh mades that mistake, but Pelosi has not. Yet.

As for Pelosi's plans for a Democratic Congress, I wish her all the best and more. But I'd like to know what her plans are for dealing with the administration's non-compliance with the much-vaunted subpoena power, as well as Bush's clearly demonstrated willingness to simply ignore legislative mandates.

Don't tell me nobody thinks that's a contingency that requires some foresight and planning. I believe it's a virtual certainty, and if we arrive at a majority only to end up throwing up our hands in frustration at their lack of compliance with this promised oversight, we're going to pay for it threefold in 15 years, just as has happened every other time.

It's too bad Marshall won't clarify by either rebutting your rebuttal or posting this on TPM open to comments.

Like another poster in the comments to your rebuttal I do have a problem with Marshall calling impeachment political, because I am unsure what his meaning is. Does he mean partisan? If he means that then it is very wrong. Impeachment should be as impartial and objective as any other trial in America. Every effort should be made to overcome biases political or otherwise to view facts and not opinions or conjecture and come to a conclusion. If he means that impeachment is a political process, as in a function of the government, well...DUH!

I tend to still give Marshall the benefit of the doubt, but have to give your ideas some credit. Marshall was a war hawk on some pretty shaky grounds even before it was clear we were lied into the war. I wonder if this has to do with his DC insider status, does he listen to that "weatherman" I mentioned in my first post on this thread? Conventional wisdom was screaming, "WAR WAR WAR!" back then and conventional wisdom is saying don't rock the boat on impeachment now.

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