Europe And Washington See Rice trip (And Torture Issue) Differently

by DemFromCT

UPDATE: A must read from William Arkin on the topic.

Reading this story from the WaPo might give you the impression that Condi Rice and Europe are finding common ground at last on the torture issue. But did you know this? The Brits have done what we should have done long ago.

The House of Lords has ruled out the use of evidence obtained by torture in overseas jurisdictions in English courts.

The ruling is expected to lead to greater legal scrutiny of intelligence obtained from foreign countries.

A special panel of seven law lords unanimously allowed a challenge brought by 10 foreign nationals, mainly north African, who had been detained without charge as terror suspects.

The challenge arose because, three years ago, the Special Immigration Appeals Commission, a secretive tribunal that looks at cases of people held without trial, decided it was entitled to consider evidence that might have been obtained under torture overseas when determining whether to allow the men's appeals against detention.

The Court of Appeal, in a majority decision, ruled subsequently that such evidence could be used provided the UK "neither provided nor connived at" the torture. But the law lords said such evidence had no place in the judicial system and ordered that Siac reconsider the individual cases in the light of this decision.

Lord Nicholls said: "Torture is not acceptable. This a bedrock moral principle in this country." Several law lords pointed out the last torture warrant in England itself had been issued in 1640, the year in which the Star Chamber was abolished.

Welshman at Daily Kos describes a European POV on the Brit move and is an excellent read. In the WaPo, the World Opinion Roundup brings in Rice's trip to the torture debate:

Rice's "clarification" of U.S. policy on prisoner treatment is clearly designed to assuage local fears that torture is taking place on European soil. But as she heads for a Friday meeting with NATO foreign ministers in Brussels, the continuing media debate shows the challenge she faces in heading off a European repudiation of American leadership in the war on terrorism, especially as the coverage of CIA prisoner flights through Europe is growing more detailed.

The Scotsman reported Wednesday that new documents obtained by the government of Denmark show "at least 176 flights into or out of Scotland... by aircraft owned or run by the CIA."

European law enforcement officials are starting to investigate possible criminal offenses involved in the  transportation of persons detained without charges. According to Spiegel Online, the Council of Europe, a governmental human rights watchdog organization, has hired Dick Marty, a Swiss prosecutor known for bringing Mafia figures to justice, to investigate the CIA's actions.

The German newsweekly says Rice's Berlin visit this week only "highlighted a growing rift  between Europe and America over whether the end always justifies the means in the war on terror."
A press survey found few in the German media are convinced by the claim that America doesn't torture.

This is an issue that strikes a nerve, and is clearly not behind her as Rice makes her way around the Continent. Earlier in the week Rice was on the defensive, delivering contradictory remarks taken differently by herself and the Germans, for example. And with the reaffirmation by the Lords that torture is out of the mainstream of English law, Bush and Rice and their defenders are more and more isolated in their world view of how to fight the war on terror. And not surprisingly. Who wants to stand with those who condone torture? Even the Brits know that sort of behavior would be downright medieval.

Comments

[DemFromCT]

oh, and by the way, the europublic and its leaderts don't see eye to eye on everything.

The war in Iraq is inciting and spreading Islamic extremism, making the world a more dangerous place, but the United States and its allies should not withdraw their troops until the country is more stable, European government leaders and analysts say.

There is broad public opposition to the war in many parts of Europe and support for an immediate pullout, fueled in part by a belief that the presence of U.S. troops is itself creating upheaval. Public opinion against the war also is growing because of what many Europeans see as dubious U.S. tactics in the broader fight against terrorism, including the use of secret prisons and abusive interrogations, analysts said.

[DemFromCT]

meanswhile, the NY Times says rendition and torture screwed this up.

The Bush administration based a crucial prewar assertion about ties between Iraq and Al Qaeda on detailed statements made by a prisoner while in Egyptian custody who later said he had fabricated them to escape harsh treatment, according to current and former government officials.

[Plutonium Page]

The Dutch foreign minister Ben Bot, and other EU ministers believe Condi. Shameful. I'm really pissed off about this, and am about to fire off a letter to the editor of de Volkskrant (yes, in Dutch, too, believe it or not).

[Mimikatz]

One reason for universally condemning torture is to raise a very, very high bar for ever using it. Does anyone doubt that if there ever were a case of a bomber who was tortured into actually revealing the site of the bomb, the torturers would not be prosecuted? Or would be pardoned? But unless torture is condemned, it is all too easy, as we have seen, for it to become a routine thing, used on people who are picked up in the wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong name.

Absolute prohibitions are markers where we think the outer limits of generally acceptable conduct lie. Even though we might be able to conjure exceptional circumstances, this is never where the line is placed. They are always over the line--that is what makes them exceptional. The Bush/Cheney position is yet another example of defining deviancy down, one that will have grave implications both for our people who have the misfortune to be captured by others, and for our society when the torturers come home.

[DemFromCT]

more eurogovt vs europeople.

Not a single minister directly questioned Rice about the existence of secret CIA prisons during an one-hour discussion of the topic at a private dinner here Wednesday. Yet they emerged with a chorus of praise, saying they wanted to put the issue behind them.

The governments may be satisfied, but with the European publics primed to believe the worst about the Bush administration, the debate is not yet settled. Rice faced a difficult rhetorical challenge on her trip -- and it may be some time before it is certain that her message resonated beyond elite circles.

Rice had to signal that U.S. policy had changed -- without directly saying so, since that would appear to confirm the administration once had condoned repulsive interrogation techniques. She needed to suggest European governments okayed the CIA's seizure and transport of terrorism suspects and also had approved the secret prisons, without confirming their existence. In Germany, she had to hint that the CIA had made a mistake in nabbing a German citizen and shipping him to a brutal Afghan jail, without confirming the incident or admitting a mistake.

[DemFromCT]

Brooks on the News Hour singing Rice's praise. He's full of shit as usual. Dana Priest follows on WWIR and describes Rice ans muddled and ineffective.

[Frankeynstain]

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