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March 08, 2006

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Terrific post emptypockets. IMO one of the huge losses in our dialogue about ethnicity in this country has been the legalized expulsion of African Americans from the educational system. It wasn't legal for slaves to learn to read or write or "cipher." There is a lot of research about the physiological changes the brain goes through when someone learns how to read. It's a generational process. It's rare to see someone whose parents were illiterate, finish college. In 1920 in Florida, there were four high schools in the entire state that allowed African Americans to attend. European-Americans have in most cases, generations of unbroken and growing literacy and numeracy in their ancestors. African-Americans were forced after the Civil War to compete in a competitive job market, without the skills required to compete. When they fall victim to the understandable byproducts of illiteracy and innumeracy, substance abuse, incarceration, mental illness... neocons say they are lazy (The Bell Curve). The history of African-Americans in the U.S. is all about what happens to any ethnic group who is systematically (and legally) denied access to education.

The history of African-Americans in the U.S. is all about what happens to any ethnic group who is systematically (and legally) denied access to education.

One could argue we are now seeing Red-staters systematically denied access to education (from libraries banning certain literature to what's going on in science classes)...

I am only joking about a parallel between racism and party-ism, but since culture is so strongly inherited from one's parents it is disturbing to see cultural divides grow so deep!

p.s. my own answers to the questions I pose would be: bias for dry cleaners, not for interviewees, not for new family members, not for friends. Also I continue to order from Amazon, though I don't support the Boy Scouts or Salvation Army. I am a complete hypocrite in this area, or at least morally inconsistent.

This gives perspective to Glenn Reynolds beating Markos by 1000 points in the Amazon standings.
For new family members, I have no choice; I must accept him. My parents provided a fine example by not having a conniption when my husband announced that he felt sorry for Nixon.
For employees, not hiring the person would be discrimination. I am worried that conservative students do not feel comfortable applying for Ph.Ds or academic jobs. The VRWC is fed by these people having nowhere else to go but the paid think tanks.
I have strongly desired the friendship of smart conservatives, and despised the friendship of mindless ones.

As it happens, one of my best friends - and a guy with whom I have collaborated on musical projects - is a Bush voter. I wouldn't say he's a full-on wingnut (although he completely rejects the Republican social agenda, he's a pretty big believer in the Republican economic agenda), but he doesn't understand when I tell him that Brit hume and Neil Cavuto are blatantly conservative and Hillary Clinton isn't terribly liberal. We argue *a lot* about politics, but we still buy each other beers and enjoy playing music together.

As for your business examples, I think it depends on whether a business (or, in your hypothetical, a job applicant) is attempting to capitalize on a political agenda. If it happens to come up in conversation that my dry cleaner or bartender votes Republican, that's one thing; but if the establishment openly advocates for one point of view, that's another. In the former case I would not let it color my opinion, but in the latter case I presume that it's *intended* to color my opinion and I respond accordingly. If a business hopes to attract conservatives (or liberals, for that matter) by openly endorsing a political philosophy, then I take it as a given that people with the preferred philosophy are welcomed and those on the other side are not.

We live in a small town, political boycotts just don't work. The business that supports Bush may also be a major contributor to special projects for the local public school or may serve on a non-profit board with you. There are a few restaurants I won't go to because they've been particularly obnoxious about sex ed. or anti-choice issues. Mostly, we just try to get along. In a large city you have more anonimity and more choices. The volunteers in this community work together when they can and are usually respectful of each others opinion when we disagree. There have been a few times that an issue comes up that is so devisive it can take years for the community to recover. Most people remember that and try to avoid ugliness.

I agree wrt the cultural divides. On a hopeful note, a lot of the youngsters (under 30) of all ethnicities seem to find a common ground in rap (hip hop). I understand there are a lot of different flavors, some pretty bad, but it may be a "meeting place," such as "rock'n-roll" was in the 60's. I think you are right to analyze culture. European Americans tend to think of Halle Berry as "African-American." This simply shows the hyper sensitivity of European Americans to the faintest traces of African ethnic features. Although it probably doesn't apply to your post, Spike Lee's movie "School Daze" is about discrimination against darker skinned African Americans by the lighter skinned African Americans. He made it years before he made "Do the Right Thing." I completely agree about the large overlap between culture and ethnicity. Anyone without education faces very serious circumstances, regardless of ethnicity.

I used to think that it was stupid prejudice to avoid the e.g. car mechanic with the Bush sign in his window.

Boy did that bite me in the ass.

I won't do business with an obvious partisan Republican, because I think that they're going to rip me off.

Why wouldn't they? It's fiscally quite conservative, after all.

very interesting comments so far. thanks to all of you!

4jkb4ia,
For employees, not hiring the person would be discrimination.
that's my reasoning too; but, there are some business relationships where the line between employer and consumer is murky. For example, hiring an electrician for work on your house. Is it rational to boycott Republican-donating big businesses but not contractors; on the other hand, what's the ethical difference between hiring a job applicant and a hiring a contractor? Same questions for other business relationships -- how about picking a doctor?

rod,
As for your business examples, I think it depends on whether a business (or, in your hypothetical, a job applicant) is attempting to capitalize on a political agenda.
also something I think is key. one who evangelizes one's beliefs seems to call for different treatment than one who holds one's beliefs privately - not secretly, but respectful of different views. Now, where does a business like Walmart fall by that rule, though? They are not overtly political in their stores or advertising -- but we know privately in their corporate culture, they are. What about a business that's just as political but even more private, one where you'd really have to check buyblue.org to know how they lean -- but when you do check, you learn they lean strongly?

2strange, what you describe sounds like the ideal situation -- consumers with near-total knowledge (i.e., you really know something of the personalities and reasoning you're doing business with; you're not judging them solely by a bumper-sticker or ranking on a web site). Perhaps in any context, bias is an unfortunate luxury of large populations where people don't depend on each other individually.

Sifu Tweety, don't take this the wrong way -- but a statement that shows pre-judging like that is not unlike what one might have heard someone say about a Jew 50+ years ago (or a Scot, or the stereotypical cheapskate ethnicity of your choosing). I'm sure you don't see it like that though. Can you explain the difference?

Your post reminds me of this article on Slate from the 2004 election. Pretty amusing.

I think there is an argument to be made for avoiding putting money inti BIG red businesses. Their swag is what keeps the Repugs rolling in it, legally and not. It's their agenda, aptly described previously by emptywheel and others as a return to feudalism, that drives Bushco to systematically dismantle the middle class in this country. I see no good reason to contribute to my own demise. Therefore I have a hierachy of preference/dispreference in which businesses I patronize, preferring those I know to be blue, avoiding those I know to be big and red, and choosing locally owned if it's a tossup.

About fifteen years ago, back when i was still happily married, my husband and i gave up trying to conceive a second child and began the process of adopting. Eventually, a young woman selected us as potential parents for her baby, and we met with her AND the father (still her high school boyfriend). They were adorable, promising youngsters who, though quite unsophisticated, had ambitions which included college and careers; she, especially, was clearly determined to enjoy the adventure of her life despite their carelessness, once she had made sure that she had found a good home for her unborn child. She questioned us quite alot but it was difficult to get a sense of what answers she was looking for to fulfill her fantasy of the "good parents" in that "good home."

And then she asked us, if we had a son who, in his teens, told us that he thought he was a homosexual, would we be able to accept it? My husband and I looked at each other and, knowing that I would have an answer already forming, my husband nodded his agreement that I should just answer for us both. So, unsure of what these two kids thought about a subject less frequently discussed then than now, but determined to have my say (even at the risk of losing the child), I explained that I would have no difficulty accepting such at all. That there was NO social "stigma" with which I could imagine having an acceptance issue... unless, of course, my child ever announced he was a Republican.

So... if I were willing to abandon my child for being a Republican, you can bet I'd ditch the cleaners!

For the record... the kids laughed and immediately told us they thought we'd make great parents, the kids' parents' coerced them into getting married and keeping the baby, my marriage broke up and, most importantly, my young adult son is a very liberal democrat!

I am very prejudiced against "white supremacists" for example. It's something they chose to be as adults. Prejudice against someone for their ethnicity, gender, or sexual preference, is imo morally wrong, because no one has any control over it. I think emptypockets makes an important point about culture and the heavy role it plays. This imo is true of a lot of us wrt our choice of religion.

I've told quite a few Bush Republicans that I meet in the course of a day's work that I simply do not want to be around them or have any conversations with them on any topic. They seem puzzled and I explain how I feel about what Bush and his administration are doing to damage America, and how I can't in good faith pretend to like anyone who supports Bush and what he stands for. I've lost several friends, and even had problems being around family members. I wish I could pretend that what is happening to America doesn't matter to me, but it does. I feel a real sense of sadness as I watch our democracy slip away day by day. I refuse to associate with those who are responsible, even in ignorance, any more than I absolutely have to do so.

At the risk of upsetting the sensibilities of everyone, on the job scenario I'd discriminate for my own particular circumstances. As someone in the construction trades, who rarely employs anyone except to work alongside me doing manual labor, I'd say no thanks, unless they were a fried (I don't mind Republicans as a rule, but I wouldn't hire a Bushie). I wouldn't be able to stand working beside them, though on the other hand they might not be able to stand listening to NPR or Air America at the job site, or on the drive, day after day.

my two greatest real life heroes were both Repoblican. Both were extremely generous, kind people.

I have known Dmeocrats in my family who held racist views. I confronted them whenever they made racist remarks, though it was painful.

The world is big. Best to keep an open mind.

A cheap trick of the Republican high command has been to play people against each other who should be natural allies. No sense falling for that.

I generally spend first and foremost based on the overall impact on the world. Almost all of my food comes either from a butcher whose meat comes from regional farms who don't use additives, or my local co-op, or (in the summer) my CSA. My town still has a lot of small businesses, so if I can spend the money at the local hardware store, then I will. I've just discovered an eco-friendly dry cleaners that I'm going to use. But a lot of these decisions end up being a default blue choice.

But we have gotten into a dilemma, locally, since one of the few special event venues with unionized staff is Marriott. Where do you hold the local party annual dinner?

On the occasion of our 25th Anniversary, I wanted to buy my wife the engagement ring I was too poor to buy long ago. I went into the local jeweler and was ready to drop 3Grand when I noticed his "fetus feet" lapel pin. "Jeebus, this is right out of Seinfeld", I thought. Thinking quickly, I faked receiving a cell call and walked out of the store to take "the call". I found another jeweler and actually asked them if they were pro-choice before buying. They answered yes and I spent even more. I'm lucky that I am able to vote with my dollars.

Recently though, I have allowed a friendship to end through lack of contact. I miss my friend but his activities to implement intelligent design in local schools are where I draw the line.

I agree with mamayaga on the big and red part. A big and red company can change its "political beliefs" in the form of donations when it sees that it is losing customers, because its donations are about its financial health. A small, red independent businessperson may not be able to make a living if most of his/her customers would be liberal. In the situation described by Trainhopper the jeweler was probably confident of finding customers who agreed with him. An individual consumer may be able to do "affirmative action" also, setting aside a percentage of purchases for minority and women-owned businesses, red or blue.

To take someone's livelihood because of their political beliefs is wrong. This reminds me of McCarthyism.

Elected official is not a "livelihood" :)

The dividing line for me is racism, not Republicanism. After all, my mother, who would have been horrified by Bush, was a Republican committeewoman. I do not patronize, hire, or stomach people who will countenance white supremicist views or actions -- this has been true for a long time. And since I am a woman and gay, folks can go over a line on these issues too, though actually I am somewhat more tolerant of day to day sexism than of racism.

A friend of mine's sister recently married a Republican. Her long time Democratic family is confident that they'll convert him -- other spouses have "turned." :-)

The "Buy Blue" effort has some real merit. one of my bugaboos is progressives who reflexively link to Amazon for books when Barnes & Noble offers just as good if not better service, provides local meeting places, and best of all, gives to some Democrats while Amazon was all red last time I checked. In terms of commerce I do try to patronize firms that "give blue" and are located in blue states.

But for investments, I gave up purity a few years ago in favor of trying to make more money so that I had more to give to Democratic candidates.

In terms of race and education, the issues are VERY complicated and probably deserving of a separate post. Suffice it to say that test scores (to the extent they are a surrogate for learing) of African-American students were closing the gap for several years but started to reverse with the advent of hip-hop, gangsta rap, and technology as a divide-enhancer. Doing well in school is still "being white" and the "digital divide" is exacerbating the trends.

Based on by years of classroom volunteering over the past 5 years, I would say there is a minority of about 25% of middle and high school students who are really motivated themselves or by their parents who work very, very hard. The rest are pretty lackadasical, appallingly ill-mannered and frighteningly undereducated. Teachers struggle, but compared with my teaching days (1966-1974) let alone my school days, the difference is almost unimaginable. You really have to see it firsthand.

Wondering if all have moved on, or if there is still reason to post on this matter? I'd like to put together a response but...

excusemex2, please do. (I'm still reading, at any rate.) I've been really enjoying everyone's personal stories and thoughts on this topic. I may summarize or excerpt all these comments in a related future post, and would certainly include yours.

The great divide began for me as “Gay. Straight.” (Stick with me here; this isn’t a gay/straight diatribe.)

The genesis of that “Gay. Straight.” divide was comfort level, pure and simple. When a person spends the majority of his life feeling beleagueRed by the world around him, a world that is different both mentally and physically, the divide is natural. For me, I remember feeling different as young as seven years old, though I had no idea why, or that there was a word for the difference.

Though I am not a gay scholar, I believe this divide manifested itself, historically, in the form of the “gay ghetto”. There is a reason that certain cities or neighborhoods within cities became known as such; they were places where like-minded people could gather in safety and where, far from the harassment of heterosexuals, merely living a life seemed possible. As gays and lesbians have become more integrated in society, gay ghettos have begun creeping into the suburbs from gay central. None of this is an absolute, but it does explain at least part of the us/them and gay/straight way of thinking.

So when I landed in a city with a very visible gay population – Washington, DC - and definable gay ghetto – Dupont Circle – I flourished. (To place this in the proper perspective, this was 20 years ago.) The idea that I could choose to go to a gay dentist, a gay doctor, a gay lawyer, or that there were businesses that were run by gays or that cateRed to gays was a type of freedom that I hadn’t experienced before. In fact, there are practical reasons for this divide and in choosing gay professionals. With a gay doctor one could discuss comfortably medical issues that are (or were) particular to a gay man. With a gay psychiatrist there is a certain commonality of experience that can play a significant part in the therapeutic process. With a gay lawyer, you gain the experience of someone who is versed in the particular legal requirements of, for instance, gay couples; medical power of attorneys, how to structure the purchase of property (Tenants with Right of Survivorship), how to structure a will so that assets will transfer to the surviving partner rather than to the relatives of the deceased, and so on.

Beyond the practicality of some choices, there was often the sense that if I was going to spend my money on X, I might as well pay someone gay that provided X.

Gay/Straight is not necessarily us versus them; it’s more often us different than them. Or was.

Immersion in sameness is often harmful, as I think we learn as we grow. I remember a specific point at which my partner and I became acutely aware of this; we were hosting a party of around 70 people of which two were women, one was African-American, and the rest gay men, and I turned to my partner and said “Something is wrong with this picture”. We started thinking about moving.

At that same time, I was working at a quasi-government agency and was in a position to hire others. Did I ever give preference to someone I perceived as gay? Absolutely not, though not for altruistic reasons; I was afraid I would be accused of bias (despite that fact that though everyone probably knew I was gay, or thought they knew, it was never spoken of in 15 years). Did I ever hire a Republican? Sure, but it wasn’t my company. I no longer work for someone else, so this ‘what-if’ is based on my hiring a person to work for me, rather than a company – all things being equal in terms of experience and ability – gay or straight would have absolutely no bearing on my decision, but hire a Republican? Over my dead body.

Fast forward a few years and I find myself living in one of the most conservative parts of the country, a Blue state trending Red, and home to one of the largest congregations of Southern Baptists in the country.

But this is how the world changes. We ended up living here because the company for which my partner works – one of the few companies that provided domestic-partner benefits as far back as 1990- wanted to transfer him here and not only paid us a ton of money to move, but wined and dined me to convince me to move here. Me. Not the wife. The partner. I remember thinking at one of the many wine and dine dinners, “Whoa, this is wild, I never thought as a gay man I would get to this point.”

(At the same time, knowing where we were moving to, I told my partner that I thought I was too old to deal with having “Fag” spray painted on my garage door.)

Contradictions, everywhere, that often give lie to that which divides us.

So here we are living on a cul-de-sac in the suburbs of a third (or maybe fourth) tier city. Two men, in one house, on a block of 12 houses. Surrounded by married couples and their children. The word went out early – “Is it true?” Did two gay men actually buy that house?” (They didn’t go running for the spray paint, we learned, they were thrilled that the gays would spruce up the house and yard.) Okay, and decorating and food tips, but hey…

In this part of the world, I no longer have the obvious choice of gay or straight or Democrat or Republican. If a place of business was overtly Red, yes, I would take my business elsewhere. Though patronizing certain local businesses based on political persuasion only has an effect on the business when you have choices, and if you let the trade know why you are taking your business elsewhere. Absent explaining why, it is an act only to soothe ourselves.

If every single dry-cleaner in town has a Bush sticker, I have the choice of either holding my nose and dropping off the clothes, or never having another piece of clothing dry-cleaned.

Let’s say you are sitting around with a group of friends and the pizza arrives and it’s from Dominoes. The pizza is already paid for. Do you eat the pizza? At least I’ve gotten to the point where I tell them if you order the pizza from Dominoes, I’m outta there. Good thing there’s another pizza place and there is a choice.

That’s local. In the bigger picture, say Amazon versus Barnes and Noble, the choices we make may cumulatively have an effect on the Red business. What I need to do is send an email or a letter to Amazon and politely explain that I just spent XX dollars at Barnes and Noble, and that it was business that they would have gotten were it not for their political leanings (for lack of a better term). I need to do that every time. We need to do that every time. They need to know the amounts of money they are forsaking (which in the grand scheme of things might be negligible) and the reason why. I won’t make a difference, you won’t make a difference, but we can make a difference.

Doctors. Well, I’ve heard that there are a few gay internists around these parts but I haven’t met one. I have a chronic disease and I was lucky enough to find some Blue specialists, but only because I live near a large medical research facility. When my partner ripped his Achilles tendon we were pointed to the best surgeon in these parts. After the first consultation he laid out some scenarios and then left the room for us to think about it, but what he specifically said was “I’ll leave you alone to pray over this decision.” Pray together? My partner and I just looked at each other, jaws agape. Do we leave? If he’s the best surgeon, what point would we have made? Cutting off noses to spite faces? I wanted to leave immediately, but it was the partner’s Achilles tendon so I left it up to him.

I’m rambling, but I hope emptypockets is the only person to read this.

We live now in the land of Republicans. For the first time in my life I’ve had to weigh relationships with politics, and I find it difficult and exasperating. And significant in a manner that makes me question everything about the Red side of Red/Blue.

We are lucky enough to know everyone on our block, and have developed powerful relationships with a few families, in particular. These people are not yahoos. They are educated, urbane, complicated people on this block. It would be simplistic, but easy, to dismiss them if they had grown up in this part of the country. But the majority did not. We have New Yorkers, Chicagoans, families from Miami, and other urban locations. Yet, (I say yet), we were the only cars on the block with a Kerry/Edwards sticker in a sea of Bush stickers. We hadn’t lived in this neighborhood in 2000 so I had no clue about the political leanings of our friends on the block. In fact, nothing in our discussions or gatherings or daily life ever made me think they all were anything other than Blue. No clue. I was absolutely gob-smacked when the Bumper Stickers started appearing. I’d like to think that I’m a fairly good judge of character – people have relied on my opinions about and sense of people. I was clueless.

How could this be possible? Single issue voters? Well, the guy next door went Red after his only child was born; his concern is not only economic but security. The two couples down the block from Chicago are childless and vote the economy. The couple across the street votes on US/Cuba relations. Where do you start?

We attempted to discuss these issues but the partner and I are not – or were not at that time – political junkies, and we do not have the command of the issues as on these blogs. With our friends we eat together, party together, swim and barbeque together, laugh and have literally cried together, and they are all Republicans. And I didn’t know that before the election.

These are people with whom gay was never an issue. We speak of it at times in the abstract, but more in a positive way. When parents go out, my partner and I are the go-to people in case the kids need anything. One teen on the block wrote her senior paper on equal rights for gays. All the kids on the block help us decorate the house for Christmas. Another neighbor, after learning she had a chronic illness came to our house and cried and cried and talked with me for hours because she knew, being ill myself, that I would understand.

All Red. Even the teens.

My partner and I can argue the politics of gay and hold our own, but the politics of Bush seem so monumental and obvious. We honestly don’t know where to start.

When Bush won in 2004 I was devastated. Absolutely devastated. I pulled a bit of drama; closed all the blinds and turned off all the lights, didn’t answer the door and didn’t answer the phone for days. These same Red people were the ones that, when I finally emerged, knew instinctively that I had (at least in part) reacted to the Marriage Amendments, as if Kerry had lost because of them. (Which I still believe made a difference).

(I was subversive enough to give those that I thought were wavering two stories – one about Kerry and one about Bush - and told them just to read them before they voted – that we did not have to talk about them afterwards.)

How do I reconcile these relationships with politics?

I haven’t been able to, yet. I must be ignoring the obvious. Is it because I don’t have a choice unless I move? Could be. We had a gay friend that we ultimately came to know was Republican through and through and, in that case, let the friendship slide because we couldn’t fathom why he would vote against his interests. But did he? The economy was more important to him, so he said.

I look for reasons.

This is a one newspaper town, and the paper of record is rabidly conservative. The editorials – oh, where to start? There is a bible verse at the bottom of the editorial page every day. The LTEs run about 85% Red over Blue. The paper edits AP stories and Washington Post syndicate stories. I would read an article in the daily paper, then read the same article in the Post (my Internet homepage – sometimes, it’s hard to let go) and I started to notice that the stories were selectively edited to advance a conservative agenda. For those that don’t have access to other news sources – whether it is the Internet or other newspapers – this is what they read and see, day in and day out. We canceled the paper because I was near to having a stroke every morning. Recently the new editor of the editorial page spoke to the local Democratic Club. I thought I’d give it a shot to see if anything had changed. Long story short, when we asked why the paper carried Ann Coulter, he said it was to balance Molly Ivins. I started to explain Ann Coulter, but he cut me off with “There are just as many people reading the paper for Ann Coulter as there are reading for Molly Ivins.” Where do you start?

I’m still Blue in a sea of Red and I have to function here.

They don’t get it. They just don’t. A lot of Red people don’t get it. A lot of people running ragged through life, work concerns, family concerns, two or three jobs, they often don’t really have the time or luxury to analyze all of politics. Many people are just getting through the day.

I have a Red sister. She’s a single mother with two children, and an ex-husband that drags her in to court to Reduce his child support every time he loses his job (which is often, though whether it’s the economy or his problem isn’t always clear). She lives in a shack heated by oil and oil in that part of the country is very high. When the winter was at its worst I sent her a check for the oil bill with the comment that if so many people hadn’t voted for Bush her oil bill would be lower. She thought it was funny. Funny? I’m sending you checks to pay your oil bill because the robber barons are in office and you think it’s funny? I had to explain the connection between Bush and oil and she had never thought about it when she pulled the lever for Bush not once, but twice. What do I do with this Red sister? What are my choices?

Maybe a person can reconcile friends and relatives that are Red. I’m still trying. How about those people that are married or in a comparable relationship? I can’t imagine it ever being possible. Can people on the Red/Blue divide love and live together? That’s the reason why I don’t buy the Carville/Matalin shtick for one second. Not one second. Never mind dinner table discussions; these people have children together. It’s a dog & pony show.

I’ve gone way off the reservation here, but one last thought.

My gay/straight divide has dissipated and is now a Red/Blue divide. I don’t know whether to celebrate or cry, really.

Thanks for your thoughtful post. As you say, there are real problems with everyone self-segregating into their own communities, and you are making a difference to these people just by being there.

It is amazing that so many of your friends cite "economics" as the reason for voting GOP, when the economy has done so much better under the Dems. Perhaps this is code for "taxes", but even there the Bush tax cuts favor the top 5%, really the top 1% and not much else. I doubt that includes your neighbors. Maybe they associate Dems with overly burdensome regulations, especially if they are small businesspeople.

In the end, though, it may be more tribal than anything. They think of Republicans as "people like them," socially conservative, respectful of authority, not wanting to rock the boat, and, above all, religious.

You are in a unique position to try to understand what the appeal really is. I've tried this with my midwestern-raised brother-in-law. He feels the GOP has left him, and hasn't voted for them for years. Really, what I found was that he wasn't really that aware of what the Dem Party stands for (even here in the politically charged bay Area) and was going by images formed in the '60s and early '70s that he hadn't really reexamined.

We have boycotted Domino's for at least a decade- ever since we found out the owner was against a woman's right to choose. Glad none of my money is going into his Ave Maria town in Florida.

My family was very Catholic. All of my seven siblings and I were sent to Catholic schools- except one. And he is the only one who is still practicing- and he is the only one who voted for Bush. So maybe that Ave Maria town will crank out a few rebels- but I'm not taking any chances. No Dominos pizza.

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